I'm having trouble with 22 Hornet brass head separtation after 3 reloadings, is this common or do I have some bad brass? this is Rem brass, is Win brass any stronger?
Mike

mike what load are you using? hornet brass is not known for it's strength.

suggested pressures are low.

I'm using 11.5 gr 1680 and a 40gr bullet. According to the book I'm 1 gr under max.
Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MikeN:
I'm having trouble with 22 Hornet brass head separtation after 3 reloadings, is this common or do I have some bad brass? this is Rem brass, is Win brass any stronger?
Mike

while I do reload I have to preface this post with the fact that I personally have never loaded for the Hornet. That being said. in the years I've spent talking with people that do load for the Hornet, this is fairly common. The brass is just plain thin. Some claim a marked increase in case life by just going to the Ackley Improved chambering and it's more abrupt shoulder to slow/stop brass flow and case stretch.

ah ha - another reason to rechamber to K hornet

Win brass is a bit thicker than Rem. Also, are you full length resizing after each shot? I only use Lee collet dies and have reloaded some of my brass 8+ times.Try Lilgun powder, the pressures are about 10-12,000psi LESS than H4227, H110 W296 etc., and the velocity is better.

I've only had one case seperate in the 10 years I've reloaded for my Hornet, and that is when I over charged the case with H4227. Case seperated on the next firing. Mine is the regular Hornet, not the "K".

Wow, Lil'gun must be magic powder, less pressure and more velocity. I didn't think that was possible. What kind of pressure equipment are you using?
I tried Lil'gun in both of my contenders, starting load according to the Hodgdon manual, it was obviously hot in one and scared the S**t out of me in the other. Both barrels handle near max charges of 4227 with outstanding case life.
To each his own but I'll never put Lil'gun in a contender / hornet again. Glad the magic powder works for you.
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by jcunclejoe:
Wow, Lil'gun must be magic powder, less pressure and more velocity. I didn't think that was possible. What kind of pressure equipment are you using?
I tried Lil'gun in both of my contenders, starting load according to the Hodgdon manual, it was obviously hot in one and scared the S**t out of me in the other. Both barrels handle near max charges of 4227 with outstanding case life.
To each his own but I'll never put Lil'gun in a contender / hornet again. Glad the magic powder works for you.
Joe

a few years ago there was a recall on lil gun powder. you didn't happen to be using that lot number of powder did you? go to the hodgdon web site and check.

i've heard it said you can not get enough lil gun in a hornet case to cause overpressure. using empirical evidence i think thats true. i stopped at 13 grs and settled for 12.5 grs as my most accurate load. i love lil gun in the hornet.

i use the same pressure equipment you do. i've been using it since 1955 and still have both eyes, all my fingers and have never blown up a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
ah ha - another reason to rechamber to K hornet

butch, are you a smith? gun that is. i've been thinking about that conversion for awhile.

You're probably oversizing to be getting case separations in three shots. Back off your sizing die until cases will barely chamber.

There's also the possibility that you have one of the really tight barrels if you are using a European or older rifle. Barrels as tight as .219 have been reported, and .222 is fairly common. That would run the pressures way up with .224 bullets.

Pressure equipment??? I don't need no stinking pressure equipment! lol.

I got the pressure figures from Hogdon's website sometime ago, and Lilgun showed that much less pressure. My velocity is measured by a Chrony: 13.0gr Lilgun and a 45gr Barnes XLC get me about 2930fps. A regular 45gr sftpt gets about 2850fps out of my 20" Ruger.

I did check the lot number and it's not the one for the recall.
I have a hard time believing that some powder is going to produce 200fps higher velocity in a cartridge than any other powder at the same or lower pressures. (Hodgdon data) It just doesn't add up.
I do use the load I tried in my contenders in my Ruger 77-22H and it works great but I think it is high pressure too (a little too much velocity, I think). Haven't loaded the cases enough times to evaluate case life yet.
Joe

K-22 Hornet
That seems really fast for a Hornet. Maybe I just haven't worked with the cartridge enough to realize it's velocity potential.
I just got real skeptical when the starting load from Hodgdon expanded a primer pocket in one of my hornet cases in the contender. I only fired one and saved the rest for the Ruger. Maybe it's a contender thing but the other contender barrel seemed way too hot also. Maybe it IS a contender thing.
All we can do is try to learn and maybe even live to do so.
Joe

Taken from Hogdons site:

MAX Loads 45gr Hornaday sftpt

H4227 9.8gr 2484fps 42,000 CUP

H110 10.4gr 2574fps 43,000 CUP

Lilgun 13.0gr 2787fps 31,600CUP

I assume Hogdon has pressure barrels.

For the Hornet, Lilgun is a 'wonder powder'.

I was surprised by the velocity also, but it is consistant. With 11.7gr Lilgun and a 52gr Sierra HPBTM, my accuracy load, I get about 2650fps, excellent speed for a Hornet.

As with any rifle, your results may vary. But I get similar speeds out of my buddies Hornet, also a M77 w/20" barrel.

I still just have trouble with the math.
In general pressure = velocity. Sure you can reach pressure without getting the velocity if you are on the fast end of the spectrum for a given cartridge. But we are talking traditional favorites in the Hornet here, mid range burning rate. And the new kid comes along and, boom, 200fps faster, and lower pressure?
Doesn't make sense to me, unless!! all this time there never really was a proper burn rate powder being used in the Hornet. Nope, can't buy that either.
I'll just be super careful and look every gift horse in the mouth. If it sounds too good to be true.....

I really am glad it is working for you.

Just my humble opinion. But then, I really don't care how fast it gets there, just how consistently I can place them.
Joe

Start with new brass. Oil the case (lightly) for the first fifing. Your case will fill the chamber without thining at the stress band. Now only size enough to allow chambering. Your brass should last much longer.
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by jcunclejoe:
...In general pressure = velocity. ...

Hey Joe, Someone has mislead you very badly at some point in your Reloading career.

Pressure does not relate directly to Velocity.

I believe the first time I saw it incorrectly mentioned (as pressure = velocity) was on the now defunct Shooter's Board. And it spread like wildfire.

A lot of the folks who use Chronographs, but really do not understand Internal ballistics, seem to cling to the incorrect thought. But, it is dead wrong.
---

If you happen to have a Hodgdon Manual, let me know and I can point you to some examples in their loads where it is very clear that Pressure does not relate directly to Velocity.

If you do not have one of their Manuals, see if you can get onto their Web Site because it will also show you clearly that there is no simple relationship between the two.
---

Come to think of it, while you are at the Web Site, take a look at the 22Hornet load info. It is one of the best examples of where Pressure does not equal Velocity using the Lil' Gun in comparison to all the other Powders listed.

If it isn't clear after you take a look at it, let me know.
---

Hey MikeN, The Head Separations with a 22Hornet can indeed be quite common. I wrestled with them for 35 years and got rid of my last one 12-15 years ago.

The problem comes from a couple of things. It might be due to your specific Chamber and your specific Dies not being a close match. The Case expands in the Chamber when fired and then the Die squeezes it so much that it over works the case.

And it can also happen from trying to Hot Rod the old 22Hornet. They just can't take a lot of Pressure in a large Chamber.

This is one place where Neck Sizing Dies "might" help with the situation. Also going to the Lil' Gun Powder and Pistol Primers.

By the way, Butch's suggestion of having the rifle re-chambered to the K-Hornet version also helps and in more ways than one. Normally the K-Hornet Chambers and Dies match up much better.

First I'll order some new Win. brass, then I'll try the pistol primers and neck sizing only. I have a set of old .22 neck sizing dies. Thanks for all of the advice. I've checked fired brass size against resized brass there is only .0006 difference. I don't think that should cause the problem. But what do I know! When you start mixing powder, primers, bullets and rifles together, somtimes strange things happen that are hard to explain.
Mike

quote:

Originally posted by jcunclejoe:

I have a hard time believing that some powder is going to produce 200fps higher velocity in a cartridge than any other powder at the same or lower pressures. (Hodgdon data) It just doesn't add up.

Joe

Simply put it depends upon the peak pressure and the TIME that this pressure is acting upon the bullet. A lower pressure with a longer peak pressure curve WILL acheive a higher velocity than a higher pressure that disipates faster.
Look at it this way It takes a LOT of horsepower to reach 100mph in less than 4 seconds, but allow 8 seconds and 120mph can be had at less horsepower.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeN:
I'm having trouble with 22 Hornet brass head separtation after 3 reloadings, is this common or do I have some bad brass? this is Rem brass, is Win brass any stronger?Mike

This is common, as .22 Hornet brass is very thin, and the cases tend to "flow" due to the lack of a real shoulder. I believe the "K" version helps eliminate this problem by giving the Hornet a shoulder....

quote:

In general pressure = velocity.

Actually, pressure CAUSES velocity, and a given amount of pressure freom a given powder will produce a certain velocity with a given bullet. But a given velocity increase resulting from a powder charge increase of a certain percent carries with it a penalty of TWICE THAT PERCENT of an increase in pressure.....,

(I realize this is an oversimplification!)

Hot Core
You must have missed the first part of my statement where I said "In general pressure = velocity." I completely understand that the relationship is not linear. I have plotted P vs. V curves, Pressure ring expansion vs. velocity and plotted most every concievable possibility when I was supervisor of the Nosler ballistics lab. I am not a ballistician but I understand the principles of internal ballistics. The claims for Lil'gun in the Hornet do not make sense TO ME. That's it, plain, simple, and perhaps I am the only one with that opinion. But that is what I believe.

I believe that Hodgdon has some error in their Hornet / Lil'gun data. I do not know about the lighter weight bullets, I have only worked with 50gr bullets and what I found was that their starting loads were way too hot in both of my contender barrels.

Vibe, thank you for the explanation of peak pressure and time. It is a sound argument.

I will again state that "TO ME" it does not seem right that this new powder can blow away the performance of every other powder out there in a Hornet AND do it with less pressure. As you said it could work IF it had a totally Unique pressure curve that no other powder even approaches. I don't think that is very likely.

If it's too good to be true... It probably is too good to be true.

This is just my opinion, I am no expert, just expressing my revervations about what I believe to be flawed data and performance claims. I did write to Hodgdon, a year ago, about this very subject with no reply.

Thanks guys, always good to have a differnt point of view on a subject.
Joe

I don't claim to know how, or why, Lilgun works so well in the Hornet, but I am convinced of the higher velocity and lower pressures, and adding small pistol primers really make this Ruger shoot.

I would suspect that if the Lilgun pressures were higher, Hogdon would have changed the info on the website by now. I first saw this Hogdon info maybe 7-8 years ago.

IMHO, if you have a Hornet and you have not tried Lilgun with small pistol primers, you are missing out on lots of potential.

This MAY not be a case (pardon the pun) of load or pressure either. At least through the '60s, a lot of European rifles chambered for the Hornet were not always headspaced for the same thickness of rims as North American made rifles. A classic example was the Brno .22 Hornet sporter of the era (the one commonly sold with double-set triggers, I forget the model #).

It would not hurt any to check the headspace of your rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by k-22hornet:
...if you have a Hornet and you have not tried Lilgun with small pistol primers, you are missing out on lots of potential.

Excellent advice.
---

Hey Joe, Looks like some fine credentials in your background. Real glad to have you join us here at AR. There is another one of you Nosler guys that occasions this board too, but his name evades my old memory at the moment.

We have alot of Beginners or Rookie Reloaders that frequent this site and I try my best to keep them from being "mis-lead" when I see posts that can lead them into an improper conclusion. Due to that, I'll continue to go head-to-head with anyone posting "Pressure = Velocity" whether it says "In general" or not. It simply isn't true across the board, therefore it is mis-leading.

It seems you didn't bother to look at the Hodgdon data, so here it is for you and any of the Rookies who are following along. Since Mike is using a 40gr bullet, I'll pull that data. I'll just list MAX Loads shown in C.U.P.s as shot in a 24" barrel with a Win Small Rifle Primer in a Win case.

H4198.....11.5C....2488fps...32,800CUP
H4227.....10.2......2567fps...43,000CUP
H110.......11.2......2795fps...41,800CUP
Lil' Gun....13.0......2826fps...28,400CUP

As is obviously clear, Pressure in no way equals Velocity.

And I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the Lil'gun data was shot, in a different barrel at a different time with different individual pieces of pressure measuring equipment, than the other powders listed.
I'll bet that if they had re-tested the other powders at the same time the results may have been quite different. Generally when testing a new powder they will not re-test the old data, mostly due to cost, time and because the old loads are well established and proven.

I have indeed looked at the Hodgdon data. I also stated that my experience was with 50gr bullets only.

I believe the data is inconsistent between Lil'gun and the other powders.
Pressure measurement is far from an exact science and even the people with the labs and SAAMI rely on industry averages to determine the critical numbers pertaining to pressure. They use reference ammo to "calibrate" the equipment, within a given range, determined by the average pressures reported from as many of the SAAMI members as possible.

I respect your opinion and your beliefs in their claimed/reported numbers. Without the proper equipment I can not even begin to prove that the numbers might be wrong.

I simply believe the data to be in error based on what I have observed and because it does not make sense to me.

I will, however, try not to use the "Pressure =..." phrase.

Thanks for the spirited discussion.
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by jcunclejoe:
...I will, however, try not to use the "Pressure =..." phrase.

Thanks for the spirited discussion.
Joe

Hey Joe, Thank you for understanding about the Pressure and Velocity. I do really understand where you were coming from, but it sure goofs up the Beginning Reloaders.

I also enjoy a good discussion when both sides remain open minded. Always makes me wonder just "what" I might be missing when I do rarely disagree with someone.
---

quote:

I simply believe the data to be in error based on what I have observed and because it does not make sense to me.

I can list the 50gr data if you would care to comment specifically on it.

Do you believe the Loads shown for Lil' Gun are:
1. Too much powder?
2. FPS is too high for that amount of powder?
3. CUPs too low for that amount of powder?
4. Something else?
---

I know for sure I've missed your input on this Board and hope you stick around this time.

The way I understand it LIL-GUN has a longer pressure curve and supposedly thats where you get those high velocitys-I know it works GREAT in my 218 BEE.

The .22 Hornet has always been a troublesome design. Its plagued by excessive headspace, too thin brass, no shoulder and overloads.

The best way to cure Hornet blues is to avoid it.

Short of that the headspsce should be as close to minimum as possible, the loads must be light, the chamber must be polished and cases must be thrown out soon.

Any larger cartridge thru 6mm can be loaded with a Hornet load. Thats the common sense of it.

Had the same problem 25 years ago when I first got my Hornet in a Ruger #3. Loaded near max loads with 2400 powder (I was young the and trying to make a 222 out it). That along with an oversized chamber and full length resizing (didn't know what neck sizing was then, just screw the die down to the shell holder and load away) caused separated cases in only 3 to 4 reloads. Thank goodness for a stout action.

About four years ago found out about LilGun powder. For me it has been the miracle powder in a Hornet. Higher velocities than with 296 (200 fps), what appears to be less pressure (judging by primers), and most important, my groups finally went under 3/4" at 100 yds (best group was 3/8").

And now that I use a Lee collet die to neck size only, my brass seems to last forever. I think this is the key to brass life (in all my varmint calibers), neck size only.

Actually velocity is proportional to the integral of pressure. Just as velocity is proportional to the integral of force (same statement). FT=MV
You can't pretend that they are independant variables.
Good Luck!

Hot Core,
I am the same Joe, you mentioned, that used to post here, I never intended for my full name to be my screen name, and was finally able to get it changed to the current jcunclejoe. Now it is the same on every board where I post.

I think the posted loads for the Hornet, 50gr bullet and Lil'gun are too much powder, too much pressure and it just seems (to me) like the stated velocity is too high. When I'm expanding primer pockets with the Lil'gun starting load in both my contender barrels; and both barrels shoot between medium and max loads of other powders (with excellent case life) I just have to believe that the Lil'gun load data is too hot.

I have great loads for both barrels, I just decided to try Lil'gun and see what it was about. It works great in my Ruger rifle, but way too scary in the contender barrels. Maybe it is a contender thing, maybe it is my barrels. I'll keep using it in my rifle and keep an eye on case life.(the rifle cases have no more than 2 firings) In the contender barrels, I'll keep using what has worked so well.

I am glad, if Lil'gun is working for some or even most people. I just want to let folks know that It did cause me much concern with the 50gr bullets and starting loads.

Thanks for the welcome back, I never really left. I just tend to pick and choose the things I wish to comment on very carefully. I just try to comment only when I feel I might have something to offer or at least a pertinent opinion. I notice you are the same way.

Thanks again
Joe

Hey Joe, I just went back and "deleted" the reference to your name. I completely understand about posting names.

I had a 21" barrel 22Hornet Contender as my "last" Hornet. And I also had a 21" 44Mag barrel for it.

I was not using Lil' Gun because it had not hit the market. But I'd wrestled with the various Hornets I had for over 35 years. One day they might shoot a little under an inch and the next day with the same exact load they might do two inches.

Cured the problem by going to a 223Rem. I can either run it at 223Rem velocities or down-load it to Hornet velocities. But the nice thing about it is the accuracy with the reduced loads is so much more consistant than I had with the regular Hornets.

The 44Mag barrel had a strange quirk about it - Left Hand rifling. I call the T/C factory to ask "Why" they had used a Left Hand twist and got some seriously STUPID YANKEE Supervisor. Went that afternoon and traded all the T/C stuff I had off.

Anyway, it sure is good to know you are still around. Best of luck with your Hornets.

For what its worth here is my setup: NEF 22 Hornet, Win cases, small pistol primers, 13gr. Lil'Gun. Chrony says 3125fps, not a typo. Can you say "222 Rem."? Yes, I too have case head seperations but it happens fairly infrequently so I don't pay much attention to it. I figure I must be up to about 10-12 loadings on that case and think that is good enough. My best group off the bench was a ragged hole, I only measure group size if there are seperate holes.
I think a ragged hole is as good as it gets. I almost feel bad that the Hornet is so finicky to other people, my experience has been quite pleasant.