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Picture of gunz
posted
I was having a discussion about reloading yesterday and someone mentioned their way to find OAL. He seats a bullet way out and tries to chamber it. If it doesnt cahmber then he pops it back in the die and seats it a little furthur and tries again. When it chambers and the bolt closes he measures that bullet and that is what he uses for OAL for theat bullet in that firearm. He is an older huy that has donte this alot longer than me. i just thought I would post her and get imput from the forum on the goods and bads of doing it this way. Thanks


Most people are link slinkies, Basically useless but fun to push down the stairs.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Oklahoma City, OK | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Close the bolt on an empty chamber. Place a wooden dowel down the muzzle and agianst the bolt face. Mark the dowel at the muzzle.

Open the bolt and drop a bullet in the chamber, place a cheap pen or something in the ejection port and close the bolt. The pen is used to keep pressure on the bullet and press the bullet into the lands.

Re-insert the dowel down the mussle and against the bullet. Place a mark on the dowel at the muzzle. The distance between the lines on the dowel is the MAX OAL (bullet seated to the lands).


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gunz:
I was having a discussion about reloading yesterday and someone mentioned their way to find OAL. He seats a bullet way out and tries to chamber it. If it doesnt cahmber then he pops it back in the die and seats it a little furthur and tries again. When it chambers and the bolt closes he measures that bullet and that is what he uses for OAL for theat bullet in that firearm. He is an older huy that has donte this alot longer than me. i just thought I would post her and get imput from the forum on the goods and bads of doing it this way. Thanks


I'm an older guy too and find my max. OAL for any given bullet the same way but at times I use the split neck method. For my shooting either is adequate. I have a Stoney Point but seldom use it. If you're into hyper accurate shooting you probably want something a little more sophisticated. cheersroger


Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..
 
Posts: 10226 | Location: Temple City CA | Registered: 29 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Well, I'd say I'm an "older guy" too. I use the Stoney point gauges however and never measure OAL. Instead, I measure to the ogive. That's the true length you want. Measure a number of bullets at random out of the box & you'll find differences in length. Maybe not enough to matter in the practical world but....
Just my 2 cents. Bear in Fairbanks


Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes.

I never thought that I'd live to see a President worse than Jimmy Carter. Well, I have.

Gun control means using two hands.

 
Posts: 1544 | Location: Fairbanks, Ak., USA | Registered: 16 March 2002Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by gunz:
He seats a bullet way out and tries to chamber it. If it doesnt cahmber then he pops it back in the die and seats it a little furthur and tries again. When it chambers and the bolt closes he measures that bullet and that is what he uses for OAL for theat bullet in that firearm.


You can typically "close the bolt" on a bullet that is crammed pretty solidly into the lands. I think that what he (or you) should have said is that he seats the bullet progressivly deeper until it SHOWS no land marks. A coating of soot from a candle will help you clearly see if there is any land contact.

Now: A cartridge so assembled may or may not still be longer than the magazine; also, although most people prefer to start with minimal bullet-to-land distance, many bullets and loads perform much better with some gap (deeper seating).

So, using the land-engagement method is a dependable way to establish MAXIMUM overall length for a given bullet. That maximum LOA, measured from base to tip, will have little to do with the maximum LOA of some other bullet which may have a different ogive; it may have little to do with accuracy; and it may be excessively long for the magazine. Again, all it tells you is how long you can make a cartridge with a given bullet and still avoid engaging the lands.

Never saw the utility of the Stoney Point device myself, but then I guess that I'm "older".
 
Posts: 13263 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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The Stoney method is good - I don't use it either. Just the split case method(case mouth)edit-works well and is very cheap to boot cheers
 
Posts: 1019 | Location: foothills of the Brooks Range | Registered: 01 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Split case method?


http://www.tgsafari.co.za

"What doesn´t kill you makes you stranger!"
 
Posts: 2213 | Location: Finland | Registered: 02 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of gunz
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I shoot savage so usually magazie length is not an issue. i modified the aluminum magazine case on my browning to accept max length bullets. (you think for all the money they charge thet would do that for you) Anyhow i am unfamiliar with the split case method also. I guess i will do some resaerch tonight using the search and see if I can clear it up.


Most people are link slinkies, Basically useless but fun to push down the stairs.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Oklahoma City, OK | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Same as Mike Dettorre, except I use a Cleaning Rod with a Jag on the end and Tape to mark the rod at the Muzzle.

The nicest thing about this Method is it is easily repeatable and very accurate.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
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I have tried all the methods mentioned (split case, marked dowel, smoked bullet, Sinclair tool, Stoney Point and Reeves tool) and find the Stoney Point the most repeatable and easiest to use. In addition, it is the best way to measure to the ogive rather than the meplat.

Does this mean I get the last word, HC?


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Probably a supid question but I'm new to a lot of this. What is the split case method? Put a bullet in a case with a split neck, drop it in the action, close the bolt and the bullet will get pushed in the case to the proper OAL?
 
Posts: 117 | Registered: 07 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Tieoneon,

You got it...split the neck vertically about 1/2 way down from the mouth to the shoulder. Put a bullet in just enough to hold it in place and the place into the chamber and close the bolt...extract slowly and the OAL should represent the bullet seated to the lands.

You should do this 3-5 times and look for a consistent measurement as the the friction of the lands may draw the bullet out of the case mouth a little


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of gunz
posted Hide Post
WHy not just used a fired case without a primer and insert it into the chamber and push the bullet forward with a piece of tig welding rod. Open bolt and remove the case and bullet. Measure it. Should work just like a stoney point or is there something I am missing here?


Most people are link slinkies, Basically useless but fun to push down the stairs.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Oklahoma City, OK | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
gunz,

The case neck will be too tight and the bullet will not seat itself...


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of woods
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by gunz:
WHy not just used a fired case without a primer and insert it into the chamber and push the bullet forward with a piece of tig welding rod. Open bolt and remove the case and bullet. Measure it. Should work just like a stoney point or is there something I am missing here?


Seems like you have to make sure the case is completely seated like a bolt would do. The neck tension on the bullet would have to be just right; tight enough to hold the bullet and pull it back out of the lands and loose enough to be able to push the bullet. With the Stoney Point you can "feel" the bullet hit even with light pressure.

I really don't understand all the aversion to using the Stoney Point. It is one of the best reloading tools I have and solves all these little problems with other methods.

JMHO


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
The aversion to the stoney point is I am stupid and can't figure out how to work the thing


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
Mike go easy on yourself - you aren't the only one.
 
Posts: 1019 | Location: foothills of the Brooks Range | Registered: 01 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of gunz
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Well I have figured it out. Not too bad, Just trying to clarify some things. This topic came up because we were loading a claiber I dont have a threaded case for. As for feeling the bullet I cant see any difference between using the stoney point vs, an used cartridge. I am trying one now and I am using emery cloth to get just the right amount of tension on the ballut so I can just ease it in with the rod from the case rear just like the stoney point. Just like trying new idea on things. I mean thats what make us human right? I will advise on how it works. I am doing a 223 just because i have a 223 stoney point gauge and can verify my findings against the new tool. Thanks for all the info.


Most people are link slinkies, Basically useless but fun to push down the stairs.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Oklahoma City, OK | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by woods:
I have tried all the methods mentioned (split case, marked dowel, smoked bullet, Sinclair tool, Stoney Point and Reeves tool) and find the Stoney Point the most repeatable and easiest to use.
Hey Woods, I am glad that thingy works for you. As for me, I just can't get enough liquor in myself to convince me that the variabilities and inconsistencies from measurement to measurement actually means it is useful or accurate. Wink

quote:
In addition, it is the best way to measure to the ogive rather than the meplat.
Here I use the Sinclair Bullet Comparitor(Hex nut with holes in each face) or a regular old "Socket" from the tool box. Never wasted time trying to get the Stoney Point thingy to do this.

quote:
Does this mean I get the last word, HC?
Looks like some other folks beat me to providing a different perspective on the Stoney Points.

Lots of folks use them and seem to be quite happy wasting their money on them though. Big Grin
---

By the way Woods, I should have jumped in and supported you in that other thread where the guy said BC made no difference. Just thought you were winning with "facts", and you did.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of Bill Mc
posted Hide Post
I use the Stoney Point with a dowel down the barrel. The dowel will allow you to push out the bullet in case you stick it too hard into the lands.

Using the Stoney Point.


Back to the still.

Spelling, I don't need no stinkin spelling

The older I get, the better I was.
 
Posts: 1450 | Location: North Georgia | Registered: 16 December 2001Reply With Quote
new member
Picture of Belini
posted Hide Post
Take an unprimed fired case. Take your bullet and just barely seat it by hand. Chamber it. (It will require a little extra force to close the bolt). Measure the length. Pull the bullet and repeat a few times with a few other of the same types of bullets. Average the results and voila your done. Keep a dummy round and you can then use it to adjust your OAL when reloading. - I have never needed to split the case in order to seat the bullet for this type of measurement. Also, this procedure is outlined pretty well in the Nosler reloading manual.
 
Posts: 11 | Location: Alberta | Registered: 11 March 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of gunz
posted Hide Post
Update on the empty case method. id didnt work very well. I had to loosen up the case to get the bullet to slid in it like the stoney point. Unfortunately that made it too loose and when I removed the case the bullet stay in the chanber. Oh well i tried an idea and it didnt work. Back to the other methods. I am trying to fully comprehend the dowel method. Not sure I have it right, but I bought a smalll wooden dowel today to try tomorrow and let you know if I have it all figured out or need more help. Thanks


Most people are link slinkies, Basically useless but fun to push down the stairs.
 
Posts: 265 | Location: Oklahoma City, OK | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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