Found this at Fulton-Armory.

What do you guys think??


Hi, Clint! Why don't you condone reloading for the US Gas Operated Service Rifles?

This should not be an honest surprise for anyone. Forgive my ignorance, but what firearms manufacturer recommends reloads, or warrants the product for such? In all the world? One might reasonably ask why this is so. Well, there's all the obvious stuff. Then, there's destruction, maiming and death.

Most of you are vastly more educated than I re reloading, and I apologise for my ignorance, and, for dissapointing you with my very unpopular position. Yes, it hurts business, and has even been the catalyst for the "trashing" of my business and myself personally on the Internet. So, why in the world don't I just "get with it" and give you guys and gals the "load of the month" (there have been so many over the years), and make even more money and then join the ranks of your "worth" class?

Because I do not want you to get hurt. If I do anything re: this 20 year position, I at least alarm the thoughtful ones, and maybe, just maybe, it'll save you from something you never thought possible, no matter what safe and serviceable rifle you may be shooting.

Always remember it's 50,000 PSI only a few inches from your face.

Be prepared, as I am, for the torrent of "reloading is safe", and "I've been reloading for 20 years and never had a prob", and "can't win witout reloads", and "only an idiot would say such things", and ........ ???

Facts:

A man I know well in the mil rifle business (a supplier), was sounding a little down on the phone a few years ago, so I asked what was the matter. He answered, "I lost my eye.""—Ruger Mini-14, reloads.
A man who I know well who has been building NM Service Rifles and Match rifles for 25 years blew up a customer rifle while test firing. Face peppered with brass, blood everywhere, no permanent damage, thank goodness. Reloads. His reloads. BTW, this guy holds more records than all of you on this forum, times a few factors.
A man in the firearms business, a shooter, a person whose life was firerams, for over 20 years, was killed recently. Reloads. His reloads.
We have a bunch of large rifles that fit into small boxes (rifles we did not build, BTW), because of reloads.
Friend of a friend who has been reloading for decades, was unclogging primers in his primer feeder when the stack exploded. He's a man wanting several fingers and a thumb.
DCM Garands in perfect mechanical condition, destroyed due to reloads.
Military match M16's disintegrated, due to reloads.

And so it goes, and goes, and goes. This stuff happens all the time. But, like that accident we all heard of, we just know we would not have done such a dumb thing. The psychological libraries were filled with this proof decades ago. Sadly, "we" believe things will be different for "us." It's the way we humans are constructed. For those that have been in this business for more than a few years, it's deja vous all over again, and again, and...Oh, and remember, it takes only ONE catastrophic failure over your entire life to really ruin your day. So spare me the "I've been doing this for... years," "I'm a tool & die maker", ...

If you insist on reloading:

NO firearms company should fix your broken rifle, or, broken body. So please, do not expect, nor ask them to. Some have extorted awards not deserved, due to the litigious nature of the American culture.
Get ALL the gauges (Cartridge overall length, headspace of case, length of case). If you do not have these or know what this means, you are in very dangerous waters.
When you use the Stoney Point Gauge (or similiar gauges) to determine actual cartridge OAL, remember that you must measure EVERY bullet for each cartridge, as the bullets DO vary substantially from one another, even in the same box! And stay about 20 thou off the lands. Closer can be safe, but begs for tolerance stacks, and, human errors, and offers NO accuracy improvement. This has been proven over and over, and over, ...for the past 40 years.
NEVER assume "resized" brass is properly resized, and NEVER assume new brass is properly resized. These often are NOT. Use your gauges to verify.
NEVER assume your sizing dies properly size your cases, for often they do NOT, and often need to be adjusted as they come from the factory.
Keep in mind that there are lots of powders that are not appropriate, and, many that could destroy your rifle, kill or mame you.
Keep in mind that you are loading for a military rifle, with a free floating firing pin (see the Fulton Armory FAQ articles on the subject) and designed, most likely, by people more knowledgeable than you and I. Understand the well documented historical record re: catastrophic failures over the past 66 years from slam fires.

--Clint McKee


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I'm convinced that only rarely do we hear of rifle failures induced by reloads. I have a couple of AR blowups on file I'll bet you never heard of. Nobody wants to broadcast their mistakes.

Now, it may be that since every shooter drank milk as a child, milk causes rifle blowups. Correlation is not causation. It's just spooky when every rifle failure that comes into Fulton Armory (and there have been more than a few, over the years) can be associated with (note the wording, not Attributed To) reloads. You'd think at least one would come in that blew up with factory or USGI ammo in twenty years.

Just food for thought, no intent to convince anyone or condemn anyone. Be careful out there.

--Walt Kuleck


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Maybe I'm wrong here guys,but I think you're missing the gist of Clint's position, especially in regard to the reasons for reloads being potentially dangerous.

Most military autoloaders, especially rifles like the Garand, are far stronger than their bolt counterparts. What blows a Springfield or Enfield makes a Garand hiccup, in terms of general ability to handle pressure. The cause isn't pressures, but out of battery firing.

Reread Clint's response. Little is said about weighing charges, this is general reloader responsibility. What is mentioned, conspicuously, and several times, are case length, length overall of loaded rounds, etc., hence the references to the Stoney Point gauge and cartridge headspace tolerancing. Expecting all bullets to have the same ogival profile can get you in trouble, even from the same box. I've made draw dies for a friends bullet swaging, ain't no way all the jackets are drawn the same from the same die, hence different ogival profiles, hence different LOA's, hence one hits the rifling a bit soon in that "really accurate load" and BOOM! Please note what Clint mentioned about bullet seating to lands depth.

Bottom line is, it isn't the pressures. It's the seating depth, cartridge headspace, primer seating, primer cup resistance, neck thickness, and cartridge basal sizing that will get you killed. This beyond the ken of what metellurgical condition the brass is currently in after sizing. That's why you better have your head on straight when you load for an autoloader.

Thanks for tolerating the rant.

--R.J. Suckow

Clint does know what he is talking about.
Firing reloaded ammo can be very dangerous in semi auto arms. No manufacture should be held liable for damages caused by poor reloads.
The Issue Is Out of Battery Firing.
I choose to reload for my military semi's. I accept the liability.

muck

quote:

What do you guys think??

Hey Steve, Interesting posts.

They have some valid concerns, and it is probably best for them not to Reload for ANY semi-auto. And they might as well not do any Reloading for ANY M70s since they have such poor Gas Handling characteristics.

But that still leave lots of firearms they can Reload for if they want to.

As for me, I'll continue to Reload for semi-autos just as I always have done with clean Chambers and Actions, while using Full Length Resized Cases, a CCI #34 Primer(to avoid Slam Fires), the proper amount/type of Powder, and a Bullet crimped into a Cannelure which I know feeds well - and not give it a second thought.

Seen this before. There is a reason that no firearms company will honor a warrenty if you use reloads. To many hacks out there.

Use the books, check you scales, and you should be safe. But there have been quite a few "factory" kabooms. If I remember right, there were a few lots of Federal match .223 that were the cause of a number of AR blow ups.

Hello,
To say that Clint McKee does not know what he is talking about is not correct. He and his firm are well recognized to be a premier supplier of gas operated semi auto service rifles for both sport and match purposes.
His firm mfg.'s and sells these firearms and for him to openly come out and advocate reloading would be insane and only invite fatal law suits. You and I and a zillion others make every effort to make our loads as safe and accurate as we can, but there is that segment who either do not know, care, or are not very bright and cause great harm to themselves or others.
The firm is merely putting forth the concept of not to reload as advised by their legal folks.
If you wish to reload, do so, but as pointed out, the risk of injury,death, etc. is quite high when you consider the magnitude of force just a couple inches in front of your face when you drop the hammer on the primer. No one can say that Fulton Armory has not warned one and all.

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello,
To say that Clint McKee does not know what he is talking about is not correct. He and his firm are well recognized to be a premier supplier of gas operated semi auto service rifles for both sport and match purposes.
His firm mfg.'s and sells these firearms and for him to openly come out and advocate reloading would be insane and only invite fatal law suits. You and I and a zillion others make every effort to make our loads as safe and accurate as we can, but there is that segment who either do not know, care, or are not very bright and cause great harm to themselves or others.
The firm is merely putting forth the concept of not to reload as advised by their legal folks.
If you wish to reload, do so, but as pointed out, the risk of injury,death, etc. is quite high when you consider the magnitude of force just a couple inches in front of your face when you drop the hammer on the primer. No one can say that Fulton Armory has not warned one and all.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Given that I was almost run off the road yesterday, I have a new appreciation for what some people shouldn't be doing.
For those among us that aren't willing to pay attention to detail reloading is something that should be avoided.

What do I think? Well you asked....

Seems to me that the issue with "out of battery firing"
added to a tolerance stackup (Long seating depth) causing the bolt to "sudden stop" because of a "different" ogive shape is NOT a reason to eschew reloading for ALL semi-auto rifles, just the military ones with heavy, freeloating UNSPRUNG firing pins.

the REAL underlaying circumstances in an out of battery accident is the unrestrained (and usually relatively heavy) firing pin coupled with "soft" commercial primers.

I have never heard of an out of battery firing on say... a Remington 742/740/74/7400, and it's NOT because they use a relatively light and spring loaded firing pin.
Ditto for the Browning (Miroku) BAR

an "out of battery" accident cannot happen with a Remington semi-auto due to the interaction of the bolt head, bolt carrier and firing pin.
it is not possible for the firing pin to reach the primer until the bolt carrier moves out of the way and that doesn't happen until well after the bolt has rotated fully into battery
this requires approximatly another 3/8" of forward motion of the bolt carrier after the bolt head has rotated into lockup.

Thus "out of battery" firing in a Remington is
ONLY remotely possible with a broken firing pin(a broken pin will probably eject itself from the back of the bolt)

I'm pretty sure that the second most common Semi-auto sporting rifle (THE Ruger Mini-14 doesn't count in this case because it is a copy of the military design) the Browning (Miroku) "BAR" uses a similar design strategy.

I think anyone using "soft" commercial primers in a military design semi-auto is asking for trouble.. and anyone who does and doesn't experience problems is operating on luck.

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello,
To say that Clint McKee does not know what he is talking about is not correct. ...

Hey Driver, I've read and re-read the posts before you a couple of times and don't see where anyone said that.

Please copy it out of the post you are refering to so I can see it.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
...Most of you are vastly more educated than I re reloading, and I apologise for my ignorance, --Clint McKee.

Hey Driver, I finally did find who said Clint didn't know a lot about reloading - Clint himself. I still don't see where anyone else said that though.

Reread his post and I do understand his position from a Company standpoint.