i am really getting frustrated with reloading components. i have now decided that i know almost nothing after doing this for nearly 40 years. somebody set me straight.

when i started reloading i used a kitchen spoon for a powder measure and a Redding scale. i worked in my drafty/ dirty attic which was normally around 120 degrees in the summer. today, i have several real powder measures though i still use the Redding scale. i always work in an air conditioned area with no drafts to effect the scale. all i ever reloaded then were 30-30 and 8mm. the results were great. i never bothered with measuring cartridges or weighing bullets or any other foolish notions. i was real happy.

BUT NOW.......i am relaoding some 7mm Mauser rounds. i have chosen the 110 grain Speer HP-TNT bullets. NOW, i measure and check all sorts of things. Hell, i even wash my hands every 20 minutes or so to keep skin oils from tarnishing the brass. now that i'm taking all these precautions, i notice that none of my cartridges are coming out the same length. i measured cartridges from a box of factory Sellier and Bellott ammunition and they were all within 0.001 inch of each other. mine are nowhere near that close. i got curious and started measuring my bullets. these darned things measure from 0.960 up to 0.972. some of them are pretty pointed, but then some are so pointed it looks like you could draw blood by just touching them. others are relatively blunt. the result of this is that they don't fit up into the die the same way, so they end up coming out of the die different lengths. the difference is as much as 0.004.

here are my questions:

1. what is an acceptable amount of variation in overall length?

2. are these bullets improper given such a variation in bullet length, i.e. 0.012. (this variation occurs in a sampling of 600 bullets)

3. if i seat some of these bullets deeper, in order to get the same overall length, am i going to cause a pressure problem?

4. am i worrying about nothing?

5. why didn't i stay in my attic sweating like a whore in church, reloadin with a spoon, and havin a great time shootin my 30-30 and 8mm????????

thanks for the help......

Bill,
I know how you feel. You run into crazy stuff the more precise you try to get. In reality it is up to your rifle if it makes any differents. Every rifle shoots different and some are so finicky they will drive you crazy.

For example I had some 30/06 180 gr Sierra Boattail soft point loads for hunting a few years ago. After hunting season I noted that the lead point on some were bent and other smashed. There was a big discussion at the local gunsmith's shop as to how that would effect preformance. Since there was a 100 yard range at the shop we shot them all. Result no effect on group. Even the bullet with the lead broken off shot in the same group.

So, what difference does all these variables make in you loads? You will have to shoot them to find out.

Good Hunting
Steve

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Every man dies, but not every man really lives!!

Hey Bill,

Have you tried a competition type of bullet seater? You don't say what die you're using, but one that doesn't seat from the tip length might help (?) the problem. You know the kind that seat from further down towards the ogive?

Bill,

You said it yourself my friend. "...worrying about nothing.."

Bullets, especially HPs, seem to vary in length quite a bit.

The seating die engages the bullet further down from the tip, so if these reloads will feed through your magazine, and shoot well, don't worry about them.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Santala, BigBores, Saeed:

thanks for the encouragement....that idea about the competition die might be worth investigating. i use Hornady dies. they seem pretty good. i'll check to see if they have a competition seater. if not, i'm sure someone like Redding will. anyway, thanks.... for now though, i'm gonna go have a beer.

Hey Bill, I totally agree with Saeed.

In fact, the term Overall Cartridge Length seems to create as much (or more) confusion as any aspect of Reloading. The exact same thing you experienced (varying OCL) caused a buddy of mine to pull 40 bullets - twice. By the time he had me on the phone, he was very upset. In his case it was a HIGH Dollar Hunting bullet and he will no longer use them. Darn shame, cause he is missing out on an excellent bullet.

Just as you discovered, the variance is really in the "Overall Bullet Length". And, the highest percentage of that variance is from the Ogive forward to the Tip. It is much worse in some brands and styles than others. But, "Don't worry about it."

The important thing is to make sure the "Ogive-to-Land" distance is the same from one Lot of reloads to the next. If you are using OCL to set up the initial round of each Lot you reload, you can see in your own example that you have the potential of inducing a variance of 0.012".

That variance causes the bullet to Exit the muzzle on a different harmonic. And of course that will change the accuracy of your reloads from Lot to Lot.

I have a "File" I can send you which goes into considerable detail on whipping this problem. But, here is a short version.

Take one bullet from the box and think of it as the "Set-Up" bullet. Use whatever method you desire to determine the OCL for it to "Kiss-the-Lands". As an Example, lets say that is 2.750" OCL. Seat the "Set-Up" bullet so it is in a case at exactly 2.750" OCL and snug up the Seating Stem "Jam Nut".

Now, here is what NO ONE has ever written about as far as I can tell. Remove the Seating Die from the Press and measure the "Overall Die Length" from the top of the Seating Stem to the Die Mouth. Lets say that is a 3.850" ODL.

Record 3.850" ODL = 0.000" Off-the-Lands, on the bullet box. Now, if you want to Seat the bullets 0.020" Off-the-Lands, you adjust the Seating Die to 3.830" ODL (3.850" - 0.020" = 3.830"), snug u the Jam Nut, reverify the ODL, and screw the Seating Die into the Press. You can now begin seating bullets "from that exact same box of bullets" which will be 0.020" Off-the-Lands.

Always re-measure the ODL every time you open a new box of bullets, even if they are from the same Lot. This will compensate for Throat Erosion and when the Lots are different, will correct for manufacturing Lot-to-Lot variances.

Hope that makes some sense. If not, I can send you a longer detailed version.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

HotCore,

Great idea! I think I would call that "using your seating plug as a comparator."

Davidson & Sinclair are not going to be happy about this, but yours is obviously the right way to go.

Thanks!

There was an article in Precision Shooting, one of the last couple of issues, and it investigated the amount of "crush" you could get with a bullet into the lands. With a typical hunting style bullet, this turned out to be just .010. No matter what you do, the bullet will move before or at this point.

So, the easy way to measure is to load a round long, chamber it, seat the bullet with the bolt, GENTLY remove it, and proceed with Hot Core's method. Unfortunately, the method doesn't work with all dies.

Gotta love this forum! FWIW, Dutch.

I know exactly how you feel and came to much the same conclusion as Saeed. All I do now (as of last night) is measure the first few rounds out of the seating die with my comparator. If they are all within a few thousands of what I got with my Stoney Point gauge, I don't worry about it--I figure they will average out.

It's just not worth the time to try and get them all within a thousandth as I used to do. Last night I was trying to load a .30-06 with Hornady Spire Points to 3.782" (comparator measurement). More of them were probably 3.785". As long as the whole batch is consistent, well, to paraphrase your subject line, so ^%*&&%in' what?

I only worry about those things if the gun won't shoot. The only really important things to measure are case length, so it isn't too long, and powder charges, so you don't put too much in. I guess I'm fortunate to be short on time, because if I analized my loading techniques, I'd be lucky to shoot once a month.

Hey Recono, You are welcome.

One day a long time ago I was sitting at the Loading Bench thinking how nice it would be to have some kind of an adjustable, repeatable, Seating Depth Indicator incorporated into the Seating Stem. I looked at the Powder Measure and noticed it had a numbered gauge on it to give you a reference and was somewhat accurate (depending on the Powder). At least, it was better than nothing.

Pulled a Seating Die from the Press and just happened to pick up the Calipers at the same time. Kind of daydreaming, I slipped those Calipers over the Seating Die and it dawned on me.

Why on earth no one has ever written about doing this in any of the Component Manufacturers "old" Loading Manuals is beyond me. Surely someone else discovered this trick before I did.

I can see why they would be reluctant to do it today, because then you do not really need to buy the HIGH $$.00 Dies with the built in Micrometers. When those came on the market, I knew then someone else must have known about this all along.

I sure wasted a lot of time "Setting-Up" the Seating Stem before I figured it out.

Anyway, I hope it works as good for you as it has been working for me. Be sure the Set-Screw in your Die Lock Ring is snug and nothing is on top of the Press when you screw the Die in.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Saeed

Hot cores post on bullet seating struck me as a really original great post. Is there anyway of preserving this gem to stop it getting lost in the archives. I'm not quite sure how to achieve this, any ideas ?

Regards

Ray

Easy. Just congratulate him in this thread for his great idea every few days or so, and it will keep rising to the top.

Recono

Brilliant, I wish I'd thought of that.

Regards

Ray

When I first read it I didn't understand. I think I was looking to far into it. Sweet simplictiy ... Isn't it great! I just hope my die will fit into my calipers

Thanks Hot Core

Hey guys, Thanks again. Let me suggest rather than kicking this Thread back up, that you all just use the method and spread the word if you like it. (And, I do think you will like it!)

No need to mention me when you do either, cause I still kick myself quite often for not having realized it 40 years ago.

I worked for a Genius one time and asked him if there were any tricks to being a Genius? (Asking that question was an obvious sign of NOT being one!) He told me you just take anything that is complex, find a solution for it so simple that people look at the answer and say, "Heck, I could have thought of that!!!"

He did it ALL THE TIME! I have " 1 "! HA

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Hotcore: thanks for the response. you mentioned that you have a file which goes into this subject further. i would appreciate very much if you would email it to me at smithwc@yahoo.com

thnaks again.....

Hot Core

Tried to spread your wisdom to the corners of the shooting world, only to find.
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"Of course, this is how you record settings on a Wilson that doesn't have the micrometer top."
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It was news to me too.

Regards

Ray

Hey vssf, I've never used a Wilson Die, but I can see where they would use it the same way. Just goes to show that there were other folks that knew about it and just didn't spread the word. Sure makes me shake my head over the time I wasted when I didn't know about it.

Hey Bill, I'll get it out to you today. It is written so a "beginner" can understand the concept, so don't think it is "talking down" to you.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Hey Hot Core, how about going ahead and copying the file into this thread, for us "beginners" who would like the whole text? Thanks. Blueowl

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No nation shall be both ignorant and free-it never was-and never will be.

Hey Blueowl, It is just a little too long to do that. But, I'll be more than happy to email a copy if you, or anyone else. Just stick an email you can be reached at in here and I'll send it.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Hi HotCore
Great Idea.
Send me a copy please.
Regards
Deafdog

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deafdog@turboweb.net.au
http://deafdog.turboweb.net.au