The saga of the 416/404 continues. When last heard from, the custom express rifle that I had made on a lovely M98 action continued to show pressure signs without achieving satisfactory velocities with 400-grain bullets. This occurred particularly with 400gr RNSP Hornady bullets and without regard to the powders that we tried, RL 15 and AA 4350.

I returned the rifle to the maker and asked him to fire lap the barrel, then develop some loads that would achieve a velocity of at least 2200 fps. This figure was based upon the efficacy of the original 404 Jeffrey shooting 400-grain bullets at 2170fps, and the recoil in this rifle, which gets to be significant because of its light weight. The barrel was lapped, and loads using the 400-grain Hornady round nose, soft point were developed using both RL 15 and AA 4350. The primers on both of these loads were severely compressed, but not flattened, and velocities were in the low 2200's.

While waiting for the rifle, I perused with interest the experiments going on here with the 404J, the parent case for my wildcat. Upon receiving the rifle, I first tried a load suggested by Ray Atkinson using 4831. I was unable to come close to filling up my cases with 95 grains, or even 93 grains of H4831SC. I could barely seat the bullet with 90 grains; however, I must point out in fairness to Ray that my cases are shortened about two-tenths of an inch to permit loaded rounds to be ejected from the rifle without modification to the receiver ring. This condition occurs because the 416 Hornady bullets appear to be "cannelured" for the 416 Remington cartridge or Rigby that are built on longer actions.

The 90 grain load flattened the primers more than the 4350 or RL15 loads; therefore, development work with it was discontinued. I next turned to Varget, which had worked very well in load development for my 9.3. I again am indebted to folks here writing about the 404J for a starting load. I picked 75.5 grains, a little less than the same load they started with, which seemed safe given their subsequent use of several grains more of this powder. My load of 75.5 grains of Varget produced 2230 to 2280fps velocities, but the primers were flattened more than I liked, although comparable with the primers in the 4350 and RL15 loads. I dropped back to 74 grains, and my velocities steadied at 2250fps and the primers looked like those out of a stiff (57gr 4350)30-06 load.

I found that at a velocity of 2250 fps with a 400-grain bullet, the recoil level was at the upper level of my toleration limit. Further experimentation revealed that this same 74-grain load drove the 40-grain Partition to the same velocity, 2250fps, and the Dead Tough Solid to 2280 fps. The 350gr Speer was clocked at 2350fps over 74 grains of Varget. Primers were FC215 and WW WLMR. There was no difference noted in velocity or pressure patterns with the change in primers.

No testing was done for accuracy, only for pressure and velocity; however, all of the bullets tested with all of the powders and charges were clustered in a four inch circle, with many double and triple punches at 25 yards.

Interesting observations for which I have no explanation: the cluster of bullets was approximately 2-3 inches below the point of aim at 25 yards on this rifle using express sights; the point of aim changed after fire lapping; the primer pockets on my Norma cases seem to be really tight making primers hard to seat; I have problems with cases splitting around the web after several loadings; notwithstanding the primers, the bolt is always easy to lift; primer pockets start tight and stay tight; loads in this rifle show pressure signs at significantly lower charge weights that similar loadings in the original 404J.

If anyone has any suggested answers for these mysteries, I'd be happy to hear them. Kudude

You didn't say what brand primers you use, but I find some softer than others & will show "flattening" sooner than others. Any other signs of high pressure? I use RP 9 1/2M primers, they are a tiny bit smaller in dia. & fit the RWS & Norma case w/o distorting.
The case separations seem to indicate a headspace problem. I have fired my Norma cases 5 times now & everything still looks good. I use 84gr IMR4831 under 380grNF or 400gr Barnes solid for 2200fps & 2160fps resp. Pressures would be a bit higher in a .416/.404 but something is definetly amiss. Your gunsmith has no clue? 2200fps is plenty for me w/ a 400gr bullet though.

Fred,
You probably missed it in my rambling prose, but I used both Fed 215 and Win WLMR primers. Thanks for the heads-up about the Rem 9.5 primers. You load of 84 grains would appear to be about right. The 90 gr load of H4831 was excessive, but Ray reported significantly more as is stock loading. I am sold on Varget because of its very straight, slow increase in power. And I am with you about the recoil! Thanks again for the heads-up on Rem primers. Kudude.

Are you neck sizing or FL? Try neck sizing a couple rounds & see if it does away w/ the head seps. I still think you have a headspace problem. The Norma .404 brass is pretty good stuff.

In my mind, the splits around the web are the key...this indicates a headspace problem large enough to allow the primers to back out before the case comes back against the bolt face. This condition will definitely give you some flat primers at modest pressures.

Try some case forming by seating into the lands to hold the case back agsinst the bolt face with light loads and then just neck size these cases to work up full loads. On your way up, you may note than the primers are not as flat when you reach you old loads/velocities. If this is the case you either nedd to have the headspace reduced or fire form all of your brass.

Good luck!

I'll concur with Sabot, flat primers on loads that shouldn't flatten them when combined with case web separations says a headspace problem. I'll bet if you set the dies to only size 2/3 of the neck, you won't get any separations. Your primers will be more rounded as well, then you can pour the powder to it and truly enjoy big bore recoil at its finest.

jstevens -

I don't think he can be sure that the shoulder is in the right position unless he does the fireforming...do you agree?

I don't know the external dimensions of this round, but he could take new brass and expand the neck to get a straight case and then slowly push the 416 neck on with his dies until the bolt just closes firmly on the case. This way he could do a run of brass that fits the chamber and have them handy for normal reloading. Once he gets the loads he wants he can have a custom die cut or just make the smith fix the headspace.

Thanks guys. I agree. Of course my concern ultimately is that the round chamber easily in a critical situation. I will (1) fire form with some light loads, (2) bring the die almost down to the beginning of the shoulder to prevent setting the shoulder back, (3) uniform the pockets on the brass, and then try some regular loads.

We checked the head space and it is ok using a regular head space gauge. As you may know, many of the older long, shallow shoulder cases stretch more than those with more pronounced angles. This may be part of my problem.

What a wonderful group of people we have on this site! Thanks again. Kudude

PS: Got any explanation for the low group observations?

kudud, my only thought on the group going lower is everything affects barrel harmonics. That's why diff. bullets, same powder shoot diff. poi and same bullets diff. powder shoot diff. poi. I would think the firelapping would slightly change the harmonics, plus there could have been some minor wear to the crown vrom the lapping. Once you get your loads working the way you want, refile your sights.
Partial sizing may not affect your reliability @ all. Your individual rifle will tell you. I partial size my .404s w/o any problem. Now if I could just get those NF flat points to feed 100%, the 2nd round down wants to hang up about 50% of the time. So for solids I use the Barnes monometal.

You have a problem somewhere, you should get an easy 2400 FPS with a 416-404...Saeed gets some very fast loads in his..My std. load in a 404 is 93 grs. of IMR-4831 and I have no problem with 95 grs. as it comes half way up the neck, and I can get 2653 FPS, in fact I have shot buffalo with that load in my old 27" gun..but the 93 gr. load does just as well...