BOWHUNTRRL....
I tried to send you a PM but for some reason I don"t have "permission" to do so. Please email me at: joneiserling@cox.net. I think we may have dealt with the same person at Savage...a really helpful guy and I may contact him again before I make any changes to the rifle.

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Jon:
...I've ordered a new die set. ... Now, assuming the chamber specs are correct, what is the fix? ...

Hey Jon, Good for you concerning the "Crimp Issue" now being gone.

My recommendation for the current time is to wait until your new Die Set arrives(hopefully RCBS or Redding) and have some cases ready for Resizing. See if you can detect a significant difference in the Overall Case Length when a Case is Resized in the Lee and another compared to the new Die.

With the new Die, you may not need to trim the case shorter than normal.

Oh yes, be sure to set the new Resizing Die up so it Partial-Full Length Resizes(P-FLR) instead of Full Length Resizing.
---

Hopefully the problem will actually be resolved at that point. You may never be able to match Loads shown in the various Reloading Manuals. I have a 7mmRemMag that is that way, but it is a real killing machine. It reaches a SAFE MAX using H-1000 a full 4gr "under" what the previous 7mmRemMag I had would go to. Doesn't matter at all to the Game and the accuracy is just outstanding.
---

If after trying the new Dies out you determine the Cases still need to be shortened more than you like, you are left with having the Neck portion of the Chamber slightly lengthened. The cost will be quite high for such a small operation, but you can hold some of the cost down by just sending the barrel to have it done. Then the problem is getting a good "match" to the existing Neck Diameter and proper alignment for the small cut. Your Chamber Cast will help them with the first issue.

I'm used to Cases having a very small amount of the Bullet being held within the Caseneck. When I use 120gr bullets in my 7mm-08. I believe there is only about 0.185" of the Bullet Base inside the Caseneck. Have never had one fall out, nor had one loose. I do carry them in a shellholder rather than loose in my pocket, but I do that with all my ammo.

What I'm trying to say is just because the Casenecks are a bit short, it doesn't necessarily hurt a thing.

HotCor...
Thanks for the tips. I just got a email from Graf & Son's saying the Forrester FL die I ordered is no longer available so I'll look at RCBS/Redding. Hate to have to buy the whole set though because the Forrester was available as a single die for a lot less money. I DO have a Redding necksizing die for the 7mmWSM which I can use on cases that rechamber until I get a FL die. Looking forward to trying todays loads over the chronograph when it arrives.
As for what to do with the chamber, headspace, etc., I'm still thinking about it. I guess I have to decide whether to continue making adjustments to get the rifle to shoot or contact Savage Arms, describe what I've found, and see what they will do.
As for the case neck length it is possible that it was unnecessary to remove a full 0.030" to fix the "roll crimp" problem. Maybe .010" or .015" would have done it? At least now I have something to work with and some hope of ending up with a useable rifle.
Thanks again...

Jon

Jon,

Even if the headspace is minimum the cartridge neck should always clear a properly cut chamber.

The .030" short cases prove that the chamber is wrong. Now is the time to call up Savage and tell them that the rifle is dangerous and that you want it fixed. Start with a clear calm voice and go over then entire problem again.

I would not buy dies at this time but instead wait for Savage to fix that rifle.

Do not buy a Redding FL die for a WSM. Redding Fl dies have no air vent hole below the shoulder like RCBS dies do. The Redding dies will dent your cases.

Another thing. The Lee shell holders are all over the place on the dimension from the top of the shell holder to where the case base rests. So don't use Lee shell holders for this problem right now. Instead get a RCBS #43 for the WSMs.

SAVAGE99...
Well thanks for the tips! I did'nt know anything about Forrester dies and now I'm glad Graf was out of them. I've also had problems with Lee shell holders and check their dimensions before using them. The Lee 7WSM die I was using would not set the shoulder back (at least for my chamber) at any setting so I turned about 0.075" off it's bottom. Then, because there is so little clearance at the top it jammed the case mouth into the top of the die. Then I used shims, etc., trying to get it to set the shoulder back a little but never really got it to work. I have some Lee dies that work very well but some are real "duds".
I'm still thinking about it but I'll probably take your advice and re-contact Savage Arms. The person I was dealing with last time was very helpful and willing to listen, etc. but, the fact is they returned the rifle without fixing the problem. I still have the "test" cases they returned with the rifle and they all have the "roll crimp". Sure wish I had noticed it earlier.

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Jon:
As for the case neck length it is possible that it was unnecessary to remove a full 0.030" to fix the "roll crimp" problem. Maybe .010" or .015" would have done it? ...

Yes indeed, maybe 0.010" instead of 0.030" will do just fine. Only one way to know though - try it!

Darn shame about the Foster Die being discontinued. For some reason I seem to think that either RCBS or Redding(perhaps both) could also provide you with a single Full Length Die. I'm pretty sure Redding offers them because they sell those Neck Sizing Die Sets that use the interchangeable Neck Sizers that look like a washer. So, occasionally those folks will still need a Full Length Die.

Also agree with Don about using a good Shell Holder for the Press. I do understand about not wanting to spend any more than necessary on the Dies, " BUT " you never really waste money on a good Die Set unless you plan to be rid of the rifle shortly. Otherwise, the enjoyment of the nice Dies are well worth the cost.

HotCore...
I probably should have given more info on the die issue. Graf did'nt say they had been discontinued; they said they were not in stock and would/could not give me any shipment date at all. That's just too "open-ended" so I cancelled the order. I'm still kind of glad it is unavailable (from Graf anyway) because I'm not sure what's going to happen with the rifle. I'll probably phone Savage tomorrow just to see what they have to say. But, unless they really fix the problem I won't be staying with ANY short mag. I've already spent over $100 in shipping and insurance fees on the first two returns. Unless they convince me it will be fixed to my satisfaction I doubt I will risk more $ to return it again.
If it does'nt go back to Savage I think I'll get a good set of dies and try just taking 0.010" off a few cases and see how it goes.

Jon

quote:

...unless they really fix the problem I won't be staying with ANY short mag. I've already spent over $100 in shipping and insurance fees on the first two returns. Unless they convince me it will be fixed to my satisfaction I doubt I will risk more $ to return it again.
If it does'nt go back to Savage I think I'll get a good set of dies and try just taking 0.010" off a few cases and see how it goes.

Hey Jon, I certainly understand your frustration. Back when the WSM cartridges initially hit the market, I remember seeing various posts about "feed problems" on rifles made by the parent company - Winchester. Just saw one somewhere a day or so ago about a Browning also having feed problems with a 223WSM.

For some reason it occasionally takes some time for the manufacturers to get all the "tweaking" of the manufacturing process to the point it is solid. Not just new cartridges, but making a new rifle too. Also remember when the "new controlled-feed" M70 hit the market an article in either Rifle or Reloader about a guy in Alaska confronting a Brown Bear and having the rifle jam with a 375H&H. Obviously one of the slicker feeding cartridges ever made and that new rifle was worthless.(Two guys with him saved the day.) So, it happens.

I've no reference to what the Case Length should actually be for your 7mmWSM, so the problem might just be there and have nothing to do with the rifle at all. Or, maybe the Chamber-neck is just a tad bit too short. Obviously one or the other. But you really need to find out the proper case length is supposed to be so you can determine which way to go.

Just a darn shame to get a new rifle and obviously fine cartridge and have issues like you are having to go through.

HotCore...
I think it's easy to forget how many years of R&D went in to these rifles/cartridges beginning around the late 19th century with the 7mm Mauser and similar rounds. They sure had to work right for the military and situations like your bear story probably happened a few times before they got it right. I'm not usually the one to try something new but I assumed the big manufacturers would get it right before going to market. How does it go..."assume" makes an ASS(of)U(&)ME? There ARE those out there like "bowhuntrll" that have had great success with their short mag rifles so I guess the design CAN work.
Case length for the 7mmWSM is 2.10" in every reference I've seen. Based upon my cast measurements the chamber is "right on" and Savage said the same of the cast they did with some kind of carbon based casting material that they say is more accurate than Cerosafe.
I'll keep chipping away at the problem and if I don't come up with a fix I'll probably re-barrel to 7mm/08. The magnum Savage has a larger barrel shank than the one for the standard calibers which makes all those easy to install aftermarket barrels unuseable. I have a lathe (and have rebarreled a few Mausers and single shots) so if I can't fix it I'll buy a blank, rent a reamer, etc. and go on from there.
Thanks again for the sympathy and all the tips...

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Jon:
SAVAGE99...
The Lee 7WSM die I was using would not set the shoulder back (at least for my chamber) at any setting so I turned about 0.075" off it's bottom. Then, because there is so little clearance at the top it jammed the case mouth into the top of the die. Then I used shims, etc., trying to get it to set the shoulder back a little but never really got it to work. I have some Lee dies that work very well but some are real "duds".

Jon

Jon,

Are the cases that were sized with a die that had 75 thousands cut off it's bottom the ones we are discussing? If so they could have necks that are now too long. Perhaps the shoulder was pushed back and it was not noticed?

You can "make" a case headspace measuring holder by dropping the various sized cases into a seating die with the stem removed and measuring the assembly.

SAVAGE99...
No, I only trimmed the die back as a "last resort" to see if setting the shoulder back would would get a fired case to re-chamber. All of the symptoms we've been talking about occur with new factory ammo as well as everything I've reloaded. After your suggestion to try slipping a bullet into a fired case I also tried it with "test" cases fired by Savage Arms. As I said they also have the "roll crimp" and look about like everything else I've fired.
BTW, I phoned Savage Arms yesterday and talked to the same person that accepted the second return of the rifle about 6 mo. ago. I described the "roll crimp" finding and how trimming the case neck improved things. Their engineer/technician or whatever was gone for the Easter weekend and will return Monday. The issue will be discussed when he returns and I'm supposed to get a phone call from them next week.
Can you expand a little on using a seating die to measure headspace? I've never heard of that one.

Jon

Jon,

To measure comparitive case headspace I drop the case into the next largest seating die with the seating stem removed. Then just measure the die and end of the case with a caliper.

Say your FL sizing and wondering how much your setting the shoulder back if any. You would drop a fired case and then a sized case into a 300 WSM seating die.

quote:

To measure comparitive case headspace I drop the case into the next largest seating die with the seating stem removed. Then just measure the die and end of the case with a caliper.

Say your FL sizing and wondering how much your setting the shoulder back if any. You would drop a fired case and then a sized case into a 300 WSM seating die.

It is my understanding that the 7mm WSM has a different shoulder than the 300, 325 and 270 WSMs.

The success of the 300 WSM immediately resulted in introduction of 2 more WSMs, the 270 and 7mm WSMs. Initially, both cartridges were simply the 300 WSM necked down to .277 and .284. Most photos of the 7 WSM still show this design though newer photos reflect the actual final case design.

At the last moment before introduction, it was discovered that there is a safety issue if someone were to forceably chamber a 7 WSM cartridge in a 270 WSM rifle. So, the 7 WSM was redesigned with its shoulder location moved .037" forward. This last-minute change caused confusion. 7 WSM ammo, rifles, and correct reloading dies were slow to reach market - trailing the 270 WSM which had been announced simultaneously. With Remington's 7 SAUM already in stores and the competing 270 WSM being well received, the 7 WSM was slow to gain momentum. It is still being dragged along on the coattails of its WSM siblings.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Maybe your dealing with the reality of the short magnums?? They just ain't as good as they are hyped and they get those velocities with loads operating in the red zone...Your not the first to complain about this, but 2878 FPS with a 140 gr. bullet ain't all that bad in the killing dept, and its flat enough for any sportsmanlike shooting at game...I suspect you have a minimum chamber if its in specs...I have seen MV vari a 100 FPS between rifles of the same caliber so if you have a slow barrel that could explain the problem...

There's a lot of logic in this answer that no one is listening to.

Not all that is new is better, or even necessarily good.

Gun and ammo manufacturers are in business to sell stuff and make money.

The benchrest boys say a short fat cartridge is more accurate............ Maybe so.....

Forty years ago I worked extensively with the then new 6.5mm Rem Mag. I found among other things the short fat case body liked to grow in length at normal pressures. (not to common and bad enough, but I had to shorten the full length die .010" to size cases after a few firings to get the bolt to close) It gave more case head thrust for any given pressure even compared to longer belted cases. Not just in one gun either! I had a 600 Rem, a Ruger 77 and a re-barreled Ruger SS over the years. I wouldn't give up.....

After exhaustive testing, it can nothing better than the 6.5 mm-06, and it had a whole list of things that were worse!

The WSM's are another generation of the same.

BigRx

SAVAGE99...
got it. I'll try measuring the relative shoulder positions. Should be interesting.

STEVE4102...
Thanks for the history lesson. It looks like the 7mmWSM fadeing fast. Never has been more than one source of brass or ammo. Oh well, I also bought a Beta vcr.

BigRx...
I also agree with Atkinson,s comments and my orgional plan was to load the round "down" to about 280 Rem. velocities. But, even with those loads I get the "roll crimp", signs of high pressure, and terrible accuracy.
Your need to trim the FL die is exactly what I ran into. Nothing I did would set the shoulder back enough to re-chamber a fired round and that's why I tried trimming the die, shimming the shell holder, etc. One thing I haven't tried yet is FL resizing one of the fired cases that had the necks trimmed 0.030" and performed almost normally. I'll try it tomorrow. Thanks for the comments...

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Maybe your dealing with the reality of the short magnums?? They just ain't as good as they are hyped and they get those velocities with loads operating in the red zone...Your not the first to complain about this, but 2878 FPS with a 140 gr. bullet ain't all that bad in the killing dept, and its flat enough for any sportsmanlike shooting at game...I suspect you have a minimum chamber if its in specs...I have seen MV vari a 100 FPS between rifles of the same caliber so if you have a slow barrel that could explain the problem...

Now that this post came up in the discussion I will comment on it.

The 7mm WSM will push a 140 gr bullet out of a 24" barrel at 3250 fps. I have had one since 10/2002 and this is what it does over an Oehler 35P. The load uses RL 22 or 7828 and is very very accurate.

The much smaller 7 x 57 may be cute and adequate at moderate ranges but the 7mm WSM is a magnum.

7mm WSM
Nosler Bullets


24" barrel Start Velocity Max Velocity
WLRM primers Powder (grains) (fps) (grains) (fps)

120 grains Ballistic Tip
Start Max.
IMR4350 63.0 3156 67.0 3428
RL-19 68.0 3298 72.0 3516
AA3100 66.5 3243 70.5 3417

140 grains BT, FS, PT Start Max.
IMR4350 60.0 3001 64.0 3197
H4831SC 63.5 3071 67.5 3218
N560 63.5 3050 67.5 3262

150 grains BT, PT
Start Max.
IMR4350 56.5 2883 60.5 3045
RL-19 60.5 2959 64.5 3129
Magpro 69.0 3052 73.0 3136

160 grains PT, AB, FS Start Max.
H414 53.0 2711 57.0 2917
IMR4831 54.5 2756 58.5 2919
AA3100 58.0 2741 62.0 2938

175 grains Partition Start Max.
IMR4350 52.5 2631 56.5 2804
N560 54.5 2680 58.5 2855
H4831SC 56.0 2664 60.0 2819

Use safe reloading practices. We are not responsible for your safety - you are.

Data provided by Nosler. You assume all responsibility for its validity and use.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Maybe your dealing with the reality of the short magnums?? They just ain't as good as they are hyped and they get those velocities with loads operating in the red zone...Your not the first to complain about this, but 2878 FPS with a 140 gr. bullet ain't all that bad in the killing dept, and its flat enough for any sportsmanlike shooting at game...I suspect you have a minimum chamber if its in specs...I have seen MV vari a 100 FPS between rifles of the same caliber so if you have a slow barrel that could explain the problem...

I have suspected this all along. It is not only counterintuitive, but also contraty to all previous experience which tells us that a cartridge with greater capacity will ALWAYS outperform one of lesser capacity in the same caliber, if both are loaded with the same bullets to the same pressure levels.....

There just ain't no free lunch!

El Deguello,

Can you explain your post some more? What do you mean by "I have suspected this all along."

What have you suspected?

"It is not only counterintuitive"

Whats counterintuitive? adj : contrary to what common sense would suggest?

"but also contraty to all previous experience which tells us that a cartridge with greater capacity will ALWAYS outperform one of lesser capacity in the same caliber, if both are loaded with the same bullets to the same pressure levels....."

"Always" What previous experiance tells you that? There is diminishing returns with larger capacities in the same bore but the 7mm WSM is far from that or maybe you don't agree?

UPDATE...
Got a call from Savage Arms a little while ago. Customer Service discussed the problem with technical staff and they have requested another return of the rifle with my fired cases. They offered to pay for the shipping and the rifle should be on it's way back around the first of next week.
It will probably be several weeks before there is any "news" of their findings. But, I must say I have never dealt with any large company with such a high level of quality customer service. They seem as anxious as I am to figure out what's wrong and fix it.

Jon

The WSMs develop 6% more energy and 3% more velocity than standard length mag cases once one adjusts for capacity...they are, infact, more efficient, and this holds true even when you adjust for the extra barrel length they give.

The original arguement was tht they had better ignition due to the shorter powder column, but this is actually not about efficiency but consistency. The real reason for the better efficiency rests in the term psi. Note that it refers to pounds per SQUARE inch, not cubic inch. This means that the pressure is occurung on the surface of the inside walls of the case and the base of the bullet. Since the bullet moves and the case walls do not the ratio of the case wall area to that of the base of the bullet is a key factor.

A short fat case has less wall area than a long thin one when both have the same capacity. Hence the ratio of this smaller area to the constant area of the bullet base is larger in the short fat case.

Even though both cases have the same volume, the base of the bullet in the short fat case gets a higher proportion of the total pressure than the one in the long thin case.

Two Thank yous, one to Sabot - very interesting concept. It is something I've not considered and intend to do so in my free time.

And the other to Jon, nice update and it does speak extremely well for the fine folks at Savage. That is the kind of company we all like to do business with.

I look forward to what they report back to you.

Comments? Well I liked the way you ignored that
character that suggested you were a bit suspect
just because you don't have a chrony.
John L.