Well, I have been playing with my new Sinclair Con. Gauge. I am finding out some interesting things about my loading set-up.

First, I would like to know how many of you think chasing runout in a hunting rifle is worth the effort or a waist of time?

Second, what would you consider and acceptable amount of bullet runout in a factory hunting rifle?

Thanks

I've posted this elsewhere, but my take on it is:

You pay a lot of money for good components, then it is silly not to make the best cartridge you can possibly make with what tools you have at hand. If that involves putting a little extra time and care into what you are doing, then so be it.

But the "sensible" answer is no, do not worry about runout if the smallest thing you are going to shoot is a deer and the maximum range is 200 yards.

steve

Chasing runout in a hunting rifle is not a total waste of time. You will learn some things about your reloading techniques and become a better reloader for your efforts. There will not be a dramatic sudden decrease in your group sizes unless you manage to go from loads with serious runout problems to loads with very very little or no runout.

I do believe that runout is the major contributing factor that causes the occasional flier.

An acceptable amount of bullet runout in a factory hunting rifle would be <.002", IMO. That is not an average but the largest you should have in a batch of loads. What you really need to find and fix are those with >.005". IMO, those are the fliers (powder charge, flinching, wind......etc. are also culprits).

I'll put it to you like this: Do you like 1/2" groups or 1.5" groups?

The reason I put it in those terms is because I've seperated rounds from the same exact batch that had several thou runnout to those that had less than .002 and the groups reflected the difference.

Some folks say chasing runout is useless in a factory rifle, I say HOGWASH!

It can make a difference. I check every rifle round I load and straighten them to a range specific to the type of rifle. For example on my hunting rifles I'll accept .003 or less depending on the accuracy potential of said rifle the loads are for. On my target rifles or when I'm doing load developement for just about any rifle, I try to keep them less than .002.

Good Luck

Reloader

IMHO---runnout under .003 is match grade for a average hunting rifle. .003-.005 still acceptable and very little diff. Over .005" you will start to see a significant difference.
This has been my personal findings. This scenario was also given to me by a well known custom rifle builder.
PS--Shooting times did an article on a factory Savage rifle designed for 600 yd shooting. They fed the rifle many different handloads and factory loads. None of them had any attention paid to them for runnout sorting. The result was that 7 different loadings shot UNDER 2" AT 500 YDS. Apparently for that gun it didn't much matter what you fed it.
Maybe it makes a bigger difference for lessor rifles.
Anyhow I do try for good runnout when loading. I certainly can't see a drawback to having it.
If I am going on hunts where long range shooting might happen (for me 500 yds) I will sort the ammo into batches where they are under .003" runnout and mark them with a green marker.

Green for go, I mark mine like that as well. I think as Woods touched on, the main thing to me is that it helps identify where your reloading process introduces runout. For me, the culprit is almost always most significant in bullet seating. I have competition seaters, but they still introduce more runout than the other reloading operations, namely sizing. I tune my dies per the 'Kraky' method, which gets me to less than .002 on my sized cases, sometimes less than .001--which is damn near as good as a fired case! I have a few of my dies that after tuning, give me the same runout as a fire formed case--what I call a flatliner, the indicator barely moves when you check the case, and I have the Sinclair tool also.

I have recently purchased some Bersin tools, for determining and tweaking runout on loaded ammo. I will be testing the finished product as soon as I can get to the range, but I do know some folks from this forum, that see results, with hunting rifles, on the target face.

Good Luck--Don

Fish....I always smile when you brag up my "method". It's really just a tad of common sense that it would be good to get the expander ball as centered as possible in the middle of the die. For anyone interested here is a copy of what I do:
My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die and could pull a case slightly off center??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.

I had a friend the other day that tried this and he says his fl dies are now making less runnout than his fancy redding bushing dies so I guess it works for some people!

Works it does Kraky.
I guess like a lot of folks, sometimes I just need help with my common sense-0-meter!

I still think chasing runout is a waste of time but since you have the tool, work with it and you may find something that helps.
I don't chase runout and don't have problems shooting small groups either. I don't use expanders in my dies so that may be a huge benefit for me.
We beat this topic to death a couple weeks ago so I will end here.
Have fun and shoot more often.

Runnout gets beat to death about every 2-3 weeks on every forum!! If stocks were as cyclical as this topic we'd all retire early.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
...I would like to know how many of you think chasing runout in a hunting rifle is worth the effort or a waist of time?...

Hey Steve, I'd offer that it doesn't matter what "anyone else thinks", it only really matters if the effort results in more Accuracy for you.

Load some cartridges with every accuracy enhancement trick you are aware of, including Match Grade Bullets, BR Grade Primers, and Fully Prepped Cases. Do enough (of each style below) to end up with 15-18 Cartridges in each of the following three Lots.

Pull out the cartridges with a Concentricity of 0.000"-0.002" and segregate tham(apparently I was typing in Southern ) into Lot #1.

Use less Concentric cartridges in Lot #2, maybe anything above 0.002".

And if you still have the ability to simply P-FLR some cartridges create Lot #3, and ignore Concentricity. (I know it would be a difficult assignment to ignore Concentricity, but Dwight is not alone in this discipline.)
---

Go to the Range and clean the barrel to a Pristine Clean condition. If you normally shoot Foulers(which I don't), go ahead and run a couple through the barrel.(This means having a few extras loaded up.)

Do a "Blind Test" by having someone hand the Cartridges to you from the Lots without telling you which Lot you are using. Shoot slow enough that you do not get the barrel so hot that it is uncomfortable to hold. If you "flinch" one out, call it and don't count it against the Group.

Re-clean and start with as close to the same barrel condition as you can after each Lot.

When you are done, measure to see which method provides the very best Accuracy - for you. Then let us know what you found.

Best of luck to you.

Hot Core,
That sounds like an outstanding analytical test. My time is valuable and if I personally did all that I may quit shooting.
A question comes to mind about concentricity tools. What good is it if you don't buy the $200 Bersin Tool?
I will just have to be a hard headed redneck. Runout to me is going out to get more bullets.

Hot Core, That's my plan. As soon as the weather allows I will be testing my loads for runout and accuracy.

Dwight, I too feel my time is valuable. With my hectic life style any time on the range is time well spent. Whether it's basic load development, punching paper for fun or chasing "runout", I just can't get enough range time. Chasing runout is just another reason to "shoot more, shoot more often", and hopefully in the process I will come up with more accurate and consistent loads.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Load some cartridges with every accuracy enhancement trick you are aware of, including Match Grade Bullets, BR Grade Primers, and Fully Prepped Cases. Do enough (of each style below) to end up with 15-18 Cartridges in each of the following three Lots.

Pull out the cartridges with a Concentricity of 0.000"-0.002" and segregate tham(apparently I was typing in Southern ) into Lot #1.

Use less Concentric cartridges in Lot #2, maybe anything above 0.002".

And if you still have the ability to simply P-FLR some cartridges create Lot #3, and ignore Concentricity. (I know it would be a difficult assignment to ignore Concentricity, but Dwight is not alone in this discipline.)
---

Hey HC

I'd like to try that test but I can't!

All my loads are less than .001" now!

Could you loan me some of yours? (Is this where you challenge me to shoot to see who buys the BBQ?)

Did find out something interesting tonight though. You know how it takes 4 firings for the case to grow enough so that you can PFLR if you only neck size. If you use the body die you can move the shoulder to within .0005" of contact with the shoulder after the 1st firing (Nosler brass 30-06 in my rifle).

Imagine if you would, the groups that .308 that Shooting Times tested that did 2" groups at 500 yds if they had only spent a bit more time doing some "fancy" resizing techniques and sorted the end result.
They should have "dusted" some world records right off the face of shooting history!
Just my humor...... D Kraky

Hey Steve, I do a lot of things to my cartridges that other folks don't "waste" their time on, like weight sorting and Polishing the Case Mouth with 0000SteelWool.

So, I do encourage you to try everything, keep the Methods which provide the accuracy rewards and toss out the rest(with the Stoney Point Thingys ).

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
...What good is it if you don't buy the $200 Bersin Tool?

More money for Bullets and BBQ!

quote:

I will just have to be a hard headed redneck. Runout to me is going out to get more bullets.

I can see where this must be a Regional thing. Where I am, it means the World's Finest BBQ is "dun gone".
---

Hey Woods, I can send a PM to BH on "how" to tweak some of your cartridges for you. He can even use the Thingy to do it.
---

Hey Kraky, I saw something about that on another Board here. Humor aside, you do raise an extremely interesting point. That was some AMAZING shooting.
---

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

What good is it if you don't buy the $200 Bersin Tool?

Dwight, I straighten every crooked round I load with out a Bersin. It's very simple.

I think some of you are making this alittle more difficult than it actually is. I added a few more simple steps into my loading procedure a while back and it really has only added a few more minutes to a batch of loads.

After I finish a batch of loads, I go from the load block to the concentricity gauge, I mark the high spot with a pen(if it is not already straight), give it a slight tug with a empty trash piece of brass or a hole drilled in a block, check it again, and place it into the cart box. It only takes a few seconds to do each round. I've probably done 1000s like this in the past year or so and it really hasn't slowed down the process much at all. I can assure you it has given much better accuracy in my rifles and I personally hate to shoot for groups without doing this method now. After all, we need every little bit of perfection we can get when Accuracy is the #1 goal.

I will say the better the dies the less run-out on the norm. The Lee collet dies put out some straight ammo as well as the Forester BR dies. Run of the mill FL dies with expanders and cheap seaters create a good bit of run-out IME.

Reloader

I clown around with you guys because runout is a thing that I just will more than likely never check other than rolling a round on my desk some times.
I think my setup has a lot to do with me not worrying over it. Forster and REdding dies competition seater and no expander in the resize dies.

Hot Core
I do that little neck polishing thing with steel wool also. No technical reason but it looks good.

Talk about what works for some guys and not the next.....take a look here and see how the experts do it....

http://www.6mmbr.com/topguns.html

You'll find lots of methods....some guys don't even clean their brass.....one guy is so meticulous he wears latex gloves while reloading. You'll see lots of different ideas on sizing...runnout....dies etc etc.

Kraky,
Thanks for that link. I have really enjoyed reading it. My thoughts are if I do add to my procedure it will be neck turning at some point. My BR buddies at the range tell me it is a waste without a custom chamber but I can see that it would make a difference if not overdone.
Don't think it will hurt anything for sure.

My take on run-out,if you feel better doing it,go for it,kind of like doing brass prep.Icheck mine for run-out to mostly check my die set up,does it help,probably not on a hunting/varmint rifle .Now shooting out past 300 yards probably so.Several years ago,at a Benchrest Match,bunch of shooters got to checking theirs on a gauge somone had.Most were in the .001 to .003 range,still shot sub .25 group aggs. if they read the wind good!!For you that are going to the trouble to straighten your rounds,if you are feeding from a magazine,what do you think happens to that perfect round when it is fed up into the chamber?I think if shooting with a jam "ocl" it is going to straighten itself when chambered anyhow.
My story and i'm sticking to it !!

Well guys, I have been telling you my thoughts on runout for some time on this thread and others. I never checked for it and I shoot tight groups. WOODS once asked me how I knew that I did not have a runout problem. A friend of mine brought over a concentricity gauge and now I finally know that my reloading processes are solid as a rock. The worst runout that we found was .001 and that was from a Redding bushing die in one caliber and a Forster die in the other and bullets loaded with a Forster Comp seater and a standard RCBS seater for the other.
I have lost so much sleep worrying about this and now I can sleep well.

No doubt in my case. Runout chasing is a waste of time.

For me making sure my ammo has low runout is worth the effort. For hunting ammo I think under .002 is good.
The best way of course is to have a good reloading setup and process that doesn't induce runout. I think that for every Dwight that never worried about it and finds that all his ammo is under .001 there are several hundred normal reloaders that have .005 to .010 runout in some of thier ammo.
A $100 Sinclair guage is a relatively inexpensive way to tune your normal dies to top performance. Some people would rather tune several sets of $25 dies with a $100 tool than have to spend $50 to $75 for "competition" style dies (which sometimes induce just as much runout)................................DJ

An older gentleman helped me get started a long time ago and he taught me well I guess and now I am one of those older guys. The key is having good processes and discipline with those processes. A good teacher can save years of frustration and the remarkable thing is that things work best when you keep them simple.
Always remember the KISS method.

Exactly.

K.I.S.S. Keep It Straight Stupid........... ....DJ

My last trip to the range I took 3 batches of ammo loaded the same for my 300 wby. I used it's favortie load and had some ammo that had been collet died and then body died. A batch FL sized that had runnout in the .003-.005" area and a batch that was FL sized with runnout under .003".
I shot them at 300 yds and was not getting anything special out of any of them. Then I ran a boresnake through the gun and it settled down and started shooting. So, I didn't clean when I got home. I've reloaded some more ammo and will retry again. Apparently for this gun a properly seasoned barrel trumps ammo set together with much care!!

kraky,
Did you read the article about the 1000yd champion from that web site you posted above? I was surprised that he went up to 200 rds without cleaning and has shot two matches without cleaning.
I know a well lapped barrel will not collect the copper that my factory barrels collect but that is amazing. He does not shooty the moly bullets either.

Well, I think I finally have all of my dies set up correctly. I basically have two different set-ups for different cartridges. I am using a RCBS Turret Press so multiple sizing dies isn't a problem.

Set-up one is Lee Collet die followed by Redding Bushing Die with expander removed or Body Die and seated with Forster Bench Rest Seating Die. This set-up produced .001 or less neck runout and .002 or less bullet runout. Most loaded rounds have .001 or less bullet runout with a few exceptions up to .002. Nice!

Set-up two is just your basic RCBS FL Die and Seater. Originally these dies produced runout from .002 all the way up to .017. I followed Kraky's advice and tuned my FL die to center the expander. This took some doing , but I finally got them set-up to produce neck runout less than .002 and bullet runout less than .004. Most of the loaded rounds with this set-up produce bullet runout less than .002 with a few hitting the .003-.004 mark. Still, not bad compared to what I was getting before.

I want to thank everyone for all your advice. Now all I have to do is get out and test some of these loads.

Thanks Again

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:

Set-up one is Lee Collet die followed by Redding Bushing Die with expander removed or Body Die and seated with Forster Bench Rest Seating Die.

Hey Steve

Congratulations, sound like you are definitely loading better ammo now.

Are you using a Redding Bushing Die after the Lee Collet? Is it a Redding FL Bushing Die or a Redding Body Die? The bushing die will resize the neck after you have already sized it with the Lee Collet. I guess unless you leave the bushings out.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:


Hey Steve



Are you using a Redding Bushing Die after the Lee Collet? Is it a Redding FL Bushing Die or a Redding Body Die? The bushing die will resize the neck after you have already sized it with the Lee Collet. I guess unless you leave the bushings out.

I am using the Redding Bushing Die AND bushings along with the Lee Collet die for my 300WSMs, 7.62x39 and 30-06. I have found that the bushing dies work best if I keep the amount of neck reduction to a minimum. Rather than use two or more bushing to get the desired neck tension I start with the Lee Collet die. Removing the expander from the bushing die and sizing the neck an additional .001-.002 seems to work well. Kinda kills two birds with one stone, Nice concentric brass and not a lot of time wasted changing bushings.

I use the Lee Collet Die then the Redding Body die for my 6.5x55's. I am happy with amount of neck tension with the collet die here so the body die is all I need to PFL the brass.

Thanks

Steve

Good idea, maybe I'll try my one & only Redding Bushing Die in conjunction with the Lee Collet and see if it yields less runout than using it alone.

You know you can order different sized mandrels for the Lee Collet for $5.00 each. I'm going to order a bunch and see how bullet release tension affects accuracy as soon as I get around to it. Like the mandrel for the 280 measures .282", so I'm going to order a .281", .280" and .279". One time shipping charge of $4.00. Less money than bushings.