I have a newly purchased 243 left hand 700 BDL, purchased new.
This rifle will not group less than 1ans one half inches regardless of the load - factory or reload.
I am a meticulous reloader and have seated in and out and tried working up several different loads with several different powders and bullet combinations.
have full length resized and neck sized -- no difference.
Have had my gunsmith glass bed the action and free float the barrel - no change.
I use RCBS neck sizing dies and have experienced difficulty chambering neck sized brass - it makes me wonder if the chamber is centered properly -- any suggestions you may have are welcome.
Thanks in advance for your assistance.

A lot of them just won't do any better. Make a chamber cast and check. Don't get too excited about the stories that some of these guys have about their factory Rem shooting quarter inch groups all day long "if I do my part", just doesn't happen very often. [1 gun in 10,000 would be a good guess].

I've got a 700 in 204 Ruger that isn't much better. Kind of a drag, but like b beyer says 1/4" "out of the box" rifles aren't that common, except of course, the ones everybody brags about on the internet sites. I may rebarrel it and see if that makes a difference.

Stop neck sizing, and try partial Full Length Resizing. Slightly sizing the body, and bumping the shoulder back, tends to produce better accuracy in hunting rifles--regardless if it's a factory or custom barrel--than neck sizing.

Casey

You may have already done it but be sure
and check the crown.

Also make sure the bore is not copper
fouled.

good luck with the rifle !

Don't waste any more time on it. Order a new tube for it and get your smith to true the action as well. Best money spent.

Before you give up on that rifle check the back of the bolt lugs for uneven wear. If one lug shows contact and the other doesnt have it lapped untill the contact patch on both lugs is the same. Its more common on Remingtons for some reason but will normally make a average rifle shoot much better. I also dont believe that any 700 cant be made to shoot 1" or less with a little load development.

What kind of optics do you have on it? Not to sound insulting, but are all the screws tight on your scope mount? Is it possible that the problem lies in parallax (if you've got a low-end scope, or maybe a high end scope that wasn't adjusted properly)?

Another thing that COULD be a problem, as I noticed this with some of my .300 loads with 125 grain bullets. Is gas leaking out around the case? I noticed mine seemed to do this, and the hotter the load got, the tighter the groups it shot (b/c it swelled the cartridge more and thus less gas leaked out).

My experience with recent Remington rifles is that Big Green is having some issues getting the chamber to line up with the bore. This has been proved out with a bore scope, which reveiled that the chamber reamers are being run in out of line with the bore. So you wonder why the poor accuracy my guess is you have one of these out of skew chambers. Most good gunsmiths have a borescope these days, have one take a look and confirm my suspisions.
You might be able to get some accuracy if you back off your load and jam the bullet quite tightly into the start of the rifling.
I have also noticed this with the odd Savage, a Weatherby Vanguard, and a couple of Mod. 70 Winchesters so no it's not a unique to Remington issue, but it appears to be more prevelent with them.
Also if your 700 has a J lock Safety get rid of it and get a normal sized firing pin and old style bolt shroud.
Like most factory rifles these days you pays your money and you takes your chances.

I wouldn't waste any time or money on a Rem. Trade for a CZ, a Model 70, or a Mark X

i have a 30/06 was doing the same thing, just got it out of the shop last week for glass bed, and trigger down the 3 pounds. It's like i went and bought a new rifle. 115.00 bucks is all it costs for both jobs and the rifle is now half-lapping my holes at 100 yrds. I have to keep looking at it to make sure its the gun i gave them to work on. lol
Get it glass bedded and you will have a whole new rifle.

I agree with glass bedding and an agressive cleaning with a copper removal solvent, however, I'd draw the line at lug lapping and machine work. If I were to go that far, I'd go whole hog with a new barrel, trigger, and other goodies -and I'd do it in 6m/m Remington, not 243.
I think the 243 is one of those cartridges that takes a bit more understanding and patients by the reloader than does the average varmint/deer calibre. I never have experienced a pressure spike in 6m/m Rem, or 257 Roberts, like I have in the 243.

trade it off

I can't imagine even being able to chamber a barrel so poorly that you could notice that the chamber and bore are out of sync. with a bore scope. If you are not willing to have a gunsmith THAT KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING true the action and rebarrel the rifle, I would take butchlocs advice and trade it. As I said in an earlier post, inch and a half is not good, but it also isn't that bad for a factory gun. Most of the 1/4 and 1/2 inch group stories are what someone would like, not close to what they are actually shooting. In other words its a lot of B.S.

That's unusual for a 700 not to shoot well. Now in addition to poor accuracy, all you have to worry about are bolt handles coming off, extractors breaking and of course there's that's pesky safety that lawyers just love. Sorry, couldn't resist. jorge

He's already glass-bedded and free-floated.

Keep shooting the rifle a while. Have you put 200 shots thru it yet? I have had a number of rifles that were so so at first and became tackdrivers. An inch and a half is a perfectly good shooting deer rifle and will do well enough for most varminting like jackrabbits and coyotes. Try some different bullets as a couple of my 243's were picky.

Also,

Try some Barnes Triple X bullets.

I have had more than one rifle that was a 1.5" shooter drop down to well below 1" (at 100 yards).

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
A lot of them just won't do any better. Make a chamber cast and check. Don't get too excited about the stories that some of these guys have about their factory Rem shooting quarter inch groups all day long "if I do my part", just doesn't happen very often. [1 gun in 10,000 would be a good guess].

b beyer is correct.

Any store-bought rifle that shoots 1.25" to 1.5" groups consistently right out of the box is average or better than average. Just look at the accuracy results charts published in magazines like the American Rifleman when they test new rifles!

Blooper,

Some rifles are just plain finicky to say the least and it takes quite a few components to hit that magic load. I think if you try a few more powders and a variance of bullet weights and manufactures that you will stumble upon that magic recipe in your rifle.

I did load development on a Savage a while back that seemed like it took forever to find that magic load but it shot sub moa once I stumbled on to what it prefered.

Have you thought of lapping your barrel w/ JB? If all else fails, a good polishing w/ JB may tighten groups up a bit. I would not suggest that until a last ditch effort or if it currently fouls terribly.

Also have you checked for concentricty on your loads? That can certainly be a culprit when looking for that last bit of accuracy.

Good Luck

Reloader

I'd second the opinion of rebarreling and truing the action if you want a nice .243... otherwise I'd just sell it and start over.

Very frustrating to have spent all that time and money on load development and come up with zilch. I'm just not patient enough to keep beating a sorry dog.

That gun already bedded, and still not shooting, I'd get rid of the headache myself, having put in the money you have, for what, a basic action to have to rebarrel? Not I.

I'd buy a Tikka, CZ, or Ruger and save an expensive barrel job, many dollars left over and a good shooting gun.

Good thread on Medium Bores re: Rugers and Remingtons, sorry you got a bad Remington, I have had more than my share and want no more.

I have heard of many rems with chambers out of line with bolt head, this seems to be common culprits and there is not much you can do w/o spending too many $'s.

Casey is thinking right. Neck sizing dies are great for match chambers, but can cause worse runout if used for a rifle in a somewhat sloppy factory chamber. Partial resize the case until it just fits with a little resistance and load some 100 Sierras with 42 grains of IMR 4350 and some with the same load 42 grains of H414 with the bullet .030 to .035 off the lands. My brother had one he was fighting as well, I re-adjusted his dies, the 42 H414 with the 100 Sierra went three shots in a half inch over and over. This was out of a cheap CD that a friend bought him for taking him deer hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
I can't imagine even being able to chamber a barrel so poorly that you could notice that the chamber and bore are out of sync. with a bore scope. If you are not willing to have a gunsmith THAT KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING true the action and rebarrel the rifle, I would take butchlocs advice and trade it. As I said in an earlier post, inch and a half is not good, but it also isn't that bad for a factory gun. Most of the 1/4 and 1/2 inch group stories are what someone would like, not close to what they are actually shooting. In other words its a lot of B.S.

I agree. Problem with the 1/4" group stories is that in almost every case they represent the statistical exceptions to the rifle's true average accuracy.

That doesn't mean the rifle won't shoot 1/4" groups a number of times in a row. Statistically that CAN happen with just about any rifle and any ammo. But it does mean a person can expect numerous "bad" groups to balance those tiny ones out. They WILL happen too if the shooter honestly counts EVERY shot and EVERY group fired.

Of course, the shooter wants to blame the bad groups on his own error, or wind, or something other than the rifle. But it normally IS at least partly the rifle.

Mass production does not normally produce perfection in any field of manufacture. It can happen accidentally, but it is NOT a normal, reasonable, expectation.

Most folks don't realize just how well they can shoot until they try a truly accurate benchrest rifle while its barrel is still delivering primo groups, using ammo tuned for that gun. Then, by comparison, they can get a glimpse at just how their "1/4-inch all day long" rifle really is performing.

But for most factory guns, tiny groups as an average product are mostly a myth.

In 1993 I purchased a 700 rem varmint synthetic with a heavy barrel and a HSprecision stock with aircraft aluminum bedding blocks. The best groups were .750, three shots. I documented every round fired. After 360 rounds the barrel broke in and now 5 shot groups stay between .380 and .625 with just about every load I try.

Roger, something else was done or changed in that gun, a barrel just does not shoot better after almost 400 shots then it did new. The best bench rest shooter there is reportedly puts a new barrel on after 600 in the old one. No barrel shoots better with even slightly worn lands than when they are very sharp.
If your factory gun shoots that well, it is a rare gun indeed.

You should come to Augusta, Damariscotta, or Orrington next year and do a bit of B.R. shooting. It is really a lot of fun and you learn an awful lot about accuracy.

I feel that all off the shelf factory rifles have about the same chance to be consistent sub moa shooters. The chances aren't great but you could get lucky with any of the brands. Most of th factory guns sold get a solid couple hours at the range and maybe two days in the field every year so they only need to shoot minute of deer. It will usually take a good stress free bedding job and a lot of load work up to get even respectable groups. Suggesting that CZ's or Rugers or whatever are gonna give you an automatic shooter is wishful at best. I feel you need to ask yourself if you enjoy the reward of getting a factory gun to shoot? Then if it wont, selling it, and going back to the store for your next adventure? If however, you find yourself bit by the accuracy bug bad enough, I feel you have no choice but to go custom or you WILL find yourself frustrated most of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy Wiese:
Don't waste any more time on it. Order a new tube for it and get your smith to true the action as well. Best money spent.

good thinking!

Alberta, saying a rifle will not shoot a 1/4 inch group is denying that accidents happen. Just like the saying that if you give enough monkys enough typewriters, sooner or later one will type something intelligent.

The idea is to not put that group in your pocket and let it be known that your gun is a 1/4 min. rifle. Sooner or later you may be shooting with one or two of these same guys, and either find an excuse not to shoot or look foolish.

My beef with that is that a new shooter reads this here or somewhere else, and when their rifle starts shooting inch groups, they get upset and wonder just what is wrong, when in reality their gun may be a better shooter. This does not keep them from getting discouraged to the point that some will just quit shooting. I own a bunch of true B.R. guns and I would be hesitant to say that on a given day I could go out and shoot nothing larger then 1/4 inch.

I have one of their 30-06's that is the same, except the groups are 4 inches. I feel like by the time I figure it out the barrel will be shot out. I've even switched stocks. I haven't ordered the stuff to accurately measure it but I think it has a long throat.

The rifle's not really a going concern for me. I have other rifles that I like better, even if it shot better.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Alberta, saying a rifle will not shoot a 1/4 inch group is denying that accidents happen. Just like the saying that if you give enough monkys enough typewriters, sooner or later one will type something intelligent.

The idea is to not put that group in your pocket and let it be known that your gun is a 1/4 min. rifle. Sooner or later you may be shooting with one or two of these same guys, and either find an excuse not to shoot or look foolish.

My beef with that is that a new shooter reads this here or somewhere else, and when their rifle starts shooting inch groups, they get upset and wonder just what is wrong, when in reality their gun may be a better shooter. This does not keep them from getting discouraged to the point that some will just quit shooting. I own a bunch of true B.R. guns and I would be hesitant to say that on a given day I could go out and shoot nothing larger then 1/4 inch.

BBeyer -

I don't know where you got the idea I might have said that rifles will never shoot a 1/4" group.

What I said was that almost any factory rifle may be quite capable of shooting SOME 1/4" groups (perhaps even some consecutive ones), but despite what their owners say, almost NONE of them are ever capable of doing that "all day long" on demand.

And I pointed out that those 1/4" groups are a result of statistical probability...the same thing you are calling an "accident".



While we are on the subject...

It is not at all unusual for a mass production factory barrel to shoot better after a number of rounds through it. That, Sir, is a fact, not a myth. Why? Because it may have burrs, or other small anomolies in its surface finish, dimensions, etc., which are worn away by the act of shooting. In that case, shooting is acting as a lapping process.

True, it does not usually happen with high quality benchrest barrels, but factory mass production barrels are NOT of the high quality usually found on high dollar benchrest rifles.

Even some aftermarket barrels shoot better after a couple of hundred rounds. One major brand in particular, which IS an absolutely excellent make of barrel and is very popular with Palma Team members, has a reputation among high power cogniscenti for not reaching peak accuracy until two or three hundred rounds have gone down the tube.

As a former competitor in both high power and benchrest, I found most of my benchrest barrels appeared to start to lose PEAK accuracy after about 800-to-1,200 rounds. But that still didn't mean you couldn't win with them for a little while longer.

Wind reading is so important that a person could still squeak out a few wins after the PEAK accuracy was gone. (Usually a Grand Agg under .2 MOA will place a person somewhere on the podium, and it will sometimes win the shole shebang. So, if accuracy falls off from a capability of say 0.13 MOA to maybe 0.18 MOA all hope is not instantly lost.)

Alberta, When I wrote that I was agreeing with you, certainly not contradicting what you had written. The only thing that I have any concern with is that barrels may get better after a few hundred rounds. I have over 20 barrels going now and have gone through a few, and have never seen this happen. It may make sense that a factory barrel may improve a bit after some of the tool marks are shot out, but certainly that junk is gone by twenty or twenty five shots. I have only three factory guns, a Win 94, a Win. 70 and a Rem 700, the 70 is a semi custom but still has the factory barrel and these are shot a few times a year hunting so I am no authority on them, as a matter of fact other then sighting in I have never shot them off a rest.

As I said, I am not disagreeing with you at all, your "statistical probability" runs along the exact same lines as my "monkeys and typewriters". Take care and good luck.

Guess we are pretty much on the same page then.

As to the barrels improving...the U.S. military tested that very issue, in trying to establish the predicted longevity of the .30-06 barrels they were using 50+ years ago. They found that barrel accuracy improved very gradually but demonstrably for several thousand rounds, particularly if a hard core ball ammo was used such as issue AP...then it sort of plateaued, then finally, dived.

It is still true, although the number of rounds may be different for different barrels and different cartridges. I have had a good many such barrels during my high-power competition adventures, My friends who still shoot at Camp Perry tell me they are still finding it, especially with AR-15 barrels for some reason.

I wish the large scale manufacturers had gotten beyond that, but it doesn';t seem they have yet.



(I currently try to shoot one different rifle a week, just to keep the bores from rusting, and it takes me three years or more to shoot them all at that rate of use. Some of those rifles I have fired much more frequently than that, and several of them have barrels that became more acurate with more rounds down range. Until I had major health problems during the last year which meant NO shooting for almost 6 months, I usually put about 12-15,000 rounds of centerfire rifle ammo down range per year. When I was a serious Palma shooter, I'd fire maybe as much as double that.)

With very best wishes,

AC

Thats a hell of a lot of shooting, about 50 a day every day. Where do you find the time? I don't know about the army, but in my case I shoot the best barrels that I know of [ Hart, Lilja, and Krieger] and after a couple of thousand shots the VAST majority are on their way down hill. That is gilt edge accuracy that leaves, they are more than likely still good as a varmint barrel. All my barrels are stainless and I don't really worry too much about rusting the bore. They are all in a gun safe with a dehumidifier and a bunch of dissatent.

I like your tag line.

I would run some bore paste down the barrel(minimum of 100 passes) and play around with the torque on the the action screws.

Make sure to get at least a couple hundred rounds through the barrel.

After that:
1. Rebarrel and true the action.
2. Trade off, I would suggest a CZ as the ones I own are very good, if not downright exceptional.
3. Live with it.

The one thing that really helped me tighten up my groups is a higher magnification scope. I like 14-20 power for range work.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Thats a hell of a lot of shooting, about 50 a day every day. Where do you find the time? I don't know about the army, but in my case I shoot the best barrels that I know of [ Hart, Lilja, and Krieger] and after a couple of thousand shots the VAST majority are on their way down hill. That is gilt edge accuracy that leaves, they are more than likely still good as a varmint barrel. All my barrels are stainless and I don't really worry too much about rusting the bore. They are all in a gun safe with a dehumidifier and a bunch of dissatent.

I like your tag line.

Dealing first with where I find the time....if you knew me, you'd know that shooting has literally been my life. In 1959 I opened my first gunsmithing shop, and shot almost every day, at least a few rounds. In the 60's, I moved to Canada, just to be able to shoot more and hunt more.

In the 70's I took up competitive high-power shooting and shot four days a week, year around, even in the snow and temperatures way below zero. (A snow bank makes a nice rest when firing prone, BTW.) I shot between 100 and 200 rounds most of those days. If you do the math, you see that's 400-to-800 rounds a week, X 52 = between 20,800 rounds and 41,600 rounds per year. That earned me a life Master rating, and a place on a Palma Team.

Then, I took up competitive benchrest. Only shot two days a week, plus weekend matches, most weeks. Typical match is 100 rounds per day including sighters, and my practice days were usually about 120 rounds. Thanks to a lot of luck, I won more matches than I lost. (That's still 440 rounds a week, x 52= 22,880 rounds per year. Well, not quite...call it 15,000-to-17,500 rounds per year....they didn't have a match within driving distance every weekend. I'm not even going to try to calculate how many barrels that is over the years, when they only last about 1,200 rounds apiece...)

As to where did I get the time? I MADE time for it, which is why I'm not rich. A guy has to pick his priorities. You only get to go around once,and unless very lucky, may not get one complete trip around the calliope even then.

Anyway, when I was 53, I told my wife "I've made enough money for the rest of my life, I quit." (work, not shooting). So then I retired and have done nothing much except shoot (with a little hunting thrown in) for the last 17 or so years.


NOW, as to barrel life. Barrels from top after-market makers often shoot as good as they are ever going to, very soon after installation. They are very carefully made, carefully hand-lapped, etc. So, yes, perhaps most of them (though certainly not all) have nowhere to go performance-wise except downhill as they are shot.

However, one of the makes you named IS the one which has the reputation amongst highpower shooters as needing about 200-300 rounds down the bore before they perform at their peak.

It is quite different with mass produced factory barrels. They are generally plenty well made for hunting purposes, but they are usually NOT individually, super-carefully turned out, and they are seldom hand-lapped to a final finish equivalent to after-market barrels. So, they often improve a bit with what amounts to fire-lapping, obtained by sending bullets down the tube.

Thanks for the comments on my signature. It is pretty much true too...just not saying whether the listed order is correct or not (big grin)