Playing a lot with different powders in my reloads, I have found that many of the "problem" rifles that I have had, seem to have a certain powder or load that turns their accuracy deficit around....

I have a 243 Remington 700 ADL that is a real problem child... 3 inch groups at best at 100 yds with factory ammo, and most commonly used handloads...

However, 50 grains of H 380 and a 55 Ballistic Tip or a 60 grain Sierra HP, and I have a one hole shooter....22.5 grains of Blue Dot with most bullet weights and it has a very acceptable grouping potential of 1/2 to 3/4 an inch....
Tried a load of 25 grains of SR 4759 and a cheap 80 grain Remington Corelokt bullet today at the range.... NOT as accurate as the H 380/55 gr Ballistic tip load, but better than the Blue Dot loads....

A Winchester 243 in a Model 70 is another problem child I own.... HOwever 22.5 grains of Blue Dot and a 55 to 90 grain bullet and it is a one hole shooter if I do my part.....

Two Ruger 77 Mk 2s, in 7 x 57 are also problem kids.... 3 to 5 inch groups at 100 yds with just about any load....Then 40 grains of IMR 3031 with a 139 to 175 grain bullet and it becomes a tack driver with the bullets seated out to magazine length... Clean up BOTH rifles instantly...

Don't know if anyone else has had these experiences but I think it would be good info to share as we all end up with those type of rifles and for some reason we all don't end up selling them or rebarreling them or just trading them off...

There is also a certain satisfaction on straightening out some of these problem childs also....

cheers
seafire

How many times have I heard someone scream a rifle is no good when they haven't even worked up a real good reload. They may try a couple and then scream "NO GOOD @*&%$^#$^Many a new rifle has been bought for about 1/2 the price and then made to drive tacks. You hit on what this reloading is all about, making a rifle shoot well not screaming at the first out of the bull's eye shot.

Ok, i understand the reality is that different powders affect accuracy. However, I'm kind of confused as to why. Whats happening in the combustion process that results in similar presures applied at every so slightly different rates that can significantly affect accuracy? Does the impulse from the combustion excite different frequencies in the bbl/action assembly? or recoil induced movement before the bullet gets past the muzzle ( had that happen on a .45-70 confused the hell out of me for a while- for every couple of grains of 3031 I added, the group dropped 3"- finally decided the recoil was driving my shoulder back and up- more powder- more recoil- more shoulder movement-lower groups) Does the extent of bedding, for example, change the dynamics enough to change poi? so many questions

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:


Two Ruger 77 Mk 2s, in 7 x 57 are also problem kids.... 3 to 5 inch groups at 100 yds with just about any load....Then 40 grains of IMR 3031 with a 139 to 175 grain bullet and it becomes a tack driver with the bullets seated out to magazine length... Clean up BOTH rifles instantly...

Don't know if anyone else has had these experiences

Every 7X57 Ive had shot a magnitude better with the heavier bullets that were seated out as much as possibe. Had the same problem with some of my long throated wildcats and a dearly loved sporterized 6.5 Carcano . The Carcano carbine would hit a small paper plate at 100 yds. all day long with 160gr. bulltes. With 100gr. bullets that plate better be 2 Feet in diameter.I,m sure part of that was the use of .264 diameter bullets. roger

quote:

Originally posted by john h:
Ok, i understand the reality is that different powders affect accuracy. However, I'm kind of confused as to why. Whats happening in the combustion process that results in similar presures applied at every so slightly different rates that can significantly affect accuracy? Does the impulse from the combustion excite different frequencies in the bbl/action assembly? or recoil induced movement before the bullet gets past the muzzle ( had that happen on a .45-70 confused the hell out of me for a while- for every couple of grains of 3031 I added, the group dropped 3"- finally decided the recoil was driving my shoulder back and up- more powder- more recoil- more shoulder movement-lower groups) Does the extent of bedding, for example, change the dynamics enough to change poi? so many questions

John H:

I have my own theory, which is not explained in real scientific terms by me....

If one takes a cartridge and look at it from the side ( imagine it is a cut away view)...
Then when the powder is ignited it produces a wave ( pressure wave)... think of it like an ocean wave...

When that wave crests, I believe the accuracy occurs when that crest happens as close to ( preferably right at) the base of the bullet....

If the bullet is straight in the bore, and the throat is not too long to the bore, then the greatest accuracy is going to occur....

For a lot of cartridges that wave crest seems to occur right at the 45000 PSI neighborhood or so..

Faster powders, which reach max pressure quicker, but giving reduced velocity also seem to be more accurate in problem rifles....

On the opposite end of the spectrum, accuracy on poor shooters can occur with full loads of slow powder and a light bullet barely seated in the case..... Once again I think in the area of the 45,000 PSI neighborhood....

Cartridges like the 30/30, 30/40 Krag etc, seem to reach this point at a lower pressure....

I have noticed that seating depths can also effect what is accurate in a problem rifle or not.... I believe the rifle is a problem because the Quality Control on the chamber is not all that hot.... Having a barrel set back a little and rechambering is also a good way to clean up a poor shooter....

Too many reloaders are obsessed with velocity first and accuracy secondary.... the same ones that get hung up on "energy" versus shot placement....

I started out in the first group and with maturity and experience settled into the second group.....

I am sure that confused you more than helped ya...

Want an accurate 45/70 load, work with SR 4759 and Blue Dot powder.... Less powder equals less recoil, sometimes not at that much reduction in velocity.... those bullets for those are not that aerodynamic anyway.... I download my 444 from 2300 fps to 1700 to 1800 fps. I reduce recoil by 40 to 50% and give up about 10 to 15 yds in point blank range according to the trajectory charts for several different bullets....

The killing power of the 45/70 was not based on velocity originally.....More velocity, equates to more recoil and less accuracy on most shooters part....

cheers
seafire

Seafire and John H, I have had it explained to me slightly differently. How I remember it was that each barrel is like a tuning fork. When it is fired it makes an S shaped movement kind of like a water hose with plenty of pressure. Each powder provides slightly different pressure. As stated very well above the pressure spike effectively "strikes"the tuning fork in slightly different places on the barrel causing a different arc in the S. The tip of the barrel ends up in a back and forth motion or perhaps some variation of a figure 8. How long the bullet is in the barrel is critical. The most accurate loads have the bullet leaving the barrel at the end of one of the cycles of vibration so that the barrel is basically stationary for a nanosecond. If the bullet leaves the barrel in the middle of a cycle it is leaving the barrel while it(the barrel) is moving rapidly. Slight differences in barrel time between rounds leaving a moving barrel mean larger poi variation. Slight variation in barrel time,round to round, in a relatively stationary barrel make less poi variation. Did that make any sense? Now lets go to the range and see if we can make any of that make a practical difference. D

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
[QUOTE] I believe the rifle is a problem because the Quality Control on the chamber is not all that hot.... Having a barrel set back a little and rechambering is also a good way to clean up a poor shooter....

Here lately, I've just knocked a couple of factory barrels off for inspection(I'm on the fence about buying a borescope). Took a look, cleaned the gunk off the threads and action, retorqued to 50ft/lbs. or so, rechecked headspace(usually a slight bit longer due to the reduced torque)...and the group sizes have shrunk on every one. Don't quite know what to think about that...but some of these barrels were on so tight I thought I was working on a Eddystone 1917 with a Johnson Barrel...

Fire ball 168 hit on a good point. With all the communists having most of our companies the US is putting out some awful bad things. As the Americans do not raise any hell about all the communist junk coming into this country, the trend is to act just like the communists and turn out junk too! There is no telling how many factory rifles that need to be checked out before you even fire them. When an American will pay $1000.00 (scope, mounts, etc included)) for a new rifle it should shoot .250 out of the box no matter what caliber it is!

quote:

Originally posted by D Hunter:
Seafire and John H, I have had it explained to me slightly differently. How I remember it was that each barrel is like a tuning fork. When it is fired it makes an S shaped movement kind of like a water hose with plenty of pressure. Each powder provides slightly different pressure. As stated very well above the pressure spike effectively "strikes"the tuning fork in slightly different places on the barrel causing a different arc in the S. The tip of the barrel ends up in a back and forth motion or perhaps some variation of a figure 8. How long the bullet is in the barrel is critical. The most accurate loads have the bullet leaving the barrel at the end of one of the cycles of vibration so that the barrel is basically stationary for a nanosecond. If the bullet leaves the barrel in the middle of a cycle it is leaving the barrel while it(the barrel) is moving rapidly. Slight differences in barrel time between rounds leaving a moving barrel mean larger poi variation. Slight variation in barrel time,round to round, in a relatively stationary barrel make less poi variation. Did that make any sense? Now lets go to the range and see if we can make any of that make a practical difference. D

DH:

That is exactly what I was saying but being told in a different light....

But it is all theory on my part as I don't have any techno equipment to really test it all out...

But I have been able to do reloads that made decent shooters out of certain problem rifles...

cheers
seafire

Seafire,

I know what you mean. I had a .375 Ruger RSM that was a 3.5-5" gun, but it shoots 760 with almost any bullet into less than an inch, and with 270gr Speers, I can keep 5 shot groups sub 3/4".

A Tikka .243 was a 1.5 to 2" gun with factory ammo, but with IMR4350 it shoots 3/8" 5 shot groups regularly.

I've got a problem rifle that I've been working with for a while, but may be close. I have a Husqvarna 30-06 with a 20 inch pencil-thin barrel. It's been a 3.5 to 5" rifle. Tried 180's with lots of powders. 3.5". Somebody told me Husky 30-06's were 1 in 12" twist instead of 1 in 10". Tried some 150's with Varget, and the min loads were 2-3.5", but on the "work up to max" loads, the top 4 loads clustered under 3/4". I'm going to load up some just under max loads for the next trip and hope it wasn't just a fluke! Even if it is a fluke, though, I know I'll eventually find the load. Like you say, it's really rewarding when you make a problem gun shoot, and it's a fun exercise getting there.

Steve

I have always found that short barrels need quicker burning powders than the longer tubes. It was explaind as any powder that is continuing to burn past the end of the barrel is upsetting the bullet as it exits, and the slower powders take longer to completely burn.. I can't explain that, but I do know that loading the quicker stuff in the 18" & 20" tubes has worked well.
And the talk about barrels flexing is also true, from what I have read. The idea is to have the bullet exit the barrel when the barrel is either at the top or bottom of its "whip", because any other place in the cycle the barrel is still moving...
And why America still insists on loading 100-grain and 105-grain rifles in .243s that were designed around 60-75-grain pills is beyond me. The .243 was always a varmint rifle. Yes, it will kill whitetails, and do it well under most circumstances. But it never was designed as a big game rifle, and most folks won't accept that. And even a .243 that expands to 1.5 calibers is only going to leave an exit hole the same size as a 38 special wadcutter, unless it is pushing bone in front of it. That just ain't enough of a hole for a decent blood trail, in my own estimation.

Doubless,

I have to disagree on the 243 only being a varmint round....I have used the 243 and love the 105 grain Speer. I probably am pushing over max, but I use one more grain of H 414 than recommend in the Hodgdon # 26 manual and I get 3250 fps out of it...

I feel that load is competent for any deer anywhere in North America....It has never failed me or anyone else that I know who has done proper shot placement.... I have had deer take off when I shot them with a 30/06, but not with smaller calibers....

I don't blame that on the 30/06, I rack it up to I am during more precise shot placement with the smaller calibers, not being subconscience about recoil at the time...

Of course I have had dandy luck with a 22/250 for deer also, killing 5 of them so far, and all dropped instantly.... Plus several with a 223, and same results...

As long as they keep going down on the spot, the need for a blood trail isn't there....

I have also experienced some wicked exit wounds with both the 22.250 and the 243....
Yet I also shot a buck in Wisconsin that weighted 190 pounds field cleaned...It was taken at 225 yds, with an 06 and a factory 220 grain round nose.... It dropped instantly....

The exit hole was a dime sized hole with only a few drops of blood on the ground....and several kernals of corn...

Upon opening the animal up to field clean him, it looked like his lungs and liver had been stirred with a chain saw.....But the hit would not have left much of a blood trail...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
I've got a problem rifle that I've been working with for a while, but may be close. I have a Husqvarna 30-06 with a 20 inch pencil-thin barrel. It's been a 3.5 to 5" rifle. Tried 180's with lots of powders. 3.5". Somebody told me Husky 30-06's were 1 in 12" twist instead of 1 in 10". Tried some 150's with Varget, and the min loads were 2-3.5", but on the "work up to max" loads, the top 4 loads clustered under 3/4". I'm going to load up some just under max loads for the next trip and hope it wasn't just a fluke! Even if it is a fluke, though, I know I'll eventually find the load. Like you say, it's really rewarding when you make a problem gun shoot, and it's a fun exercise getting there.

Steve

I am a Husqvarna collector and I can tell you that you are on the right track now with loadings for your Husky. In my experience, the Husky's shoot much better with "hot" loads. These rifles were developed for and tested with Norma ammo and Norma typically loads their ammo much "hotter" than US manufacturers do. Also, the light countour of the Husqvarna barrels causes stringing in 5 shot groups unless you let the barrel cool between shots. I always shoot 3 shot groups with my Husqvarnas when testing for accuracy.