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| One of Us |
Are the brass bullets harder on rifle bores? Most seem to be undersized. Why? Some manufacturers suggest you completely clean a bore before using..why? Appreciate any other comments. Thanks | ||
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SHORT ANSWER: Bullets don't kill barrels, hot gases and cleaning rods do. LONG ANSWER: The newer Monos (like Barnes) have relief rings designed into them for the purpose of decreasing bearing surface contact to lower pressures and reduce fouling. I have been shooting them for over 15 years now and have not noticed increased barrel wear. In fact, the copper used to make Barnes bullets is normally softer than the jackets on lead-core ammo. Excessive barrel wear normally occurs from: 1) Shooting high velocity rounds. Velocity = Wear. 2) Improper cleaning / maintenance. 3) Poorly manufactured / finished barrel. On the cleaning issue between brands; yes, always clean out ALL copper fouling before switching bullet brands. Barnes, Hornady, Swift, etc. all use slightly different proprietary alloys to make their bullets. You do not want to foul a gilding metal GMX bullet or traditional jacketed bullet over Barnes fouling that is already in the barrel; dissimilar metals in the barrel do not play well together. I have notice huge improvements in accuracy after completely scrubbing barrels clean before switching to Barnes. | |||
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No they do not. In WWI the French used SOLID Bronze bullets in their 8mm Lebel rifles I believe were called Balle D. The bullets were lathe turned. I have shot these bullets. I have shot these bullets and are they not only accurate they hit very hard. The bore was very clean aftwards. Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club NRA Endowment Member President NM MILSURPS | |||
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I would never shoot brass bullets in any of my rifles.I have shot copper monometals but only in a certain case.If boxers used brass knuckles instead of padded gloves would that make a difference? | |||
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I shoot brass monos (L.O.S. Hunter Tactical) in my .308 since last year. I have about 300 rounds down the barrel. I could let you know in 10 year's time, what the bullets really do to the barrel. So far I haven't noticed any adverse effects. My bore scope tells me that the lands are still there and sharp. | |||
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Here is something you might think about. We make both copper and brass bullets on our CNC lathe. Tools last a lot longer making brass than copper!! So if they have the same effects on barrels, one is better use brass than copper!  | |||
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metal hardness | |||
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Any brass bullet WILL affect the barrel more than a lead core & gild cup bullet. That does not mean that brass is bad. It is just harder. Barnes in the early 90s was to caliber and no bands. They used to cause huge pressure spikes with blown primers. The harder brass just did not have the time or place to swage through the barrel before the pressure spike. They started introducing the TSX with bands and made them 0.001 inch smaller so that the bullet would ride the lands and there would be space in the grooves for the metal to displace. This reduced fouling & pressure & also improved accuracy. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Barnes bullets were copper, not brass. Brass has been used for solids and can often be loaded hotter. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I have a box of Barnes 500 gr RN solids that are brass, at least they certainly look like brass. Bought them maybe 30 years ago, no bands. | |||
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Not necessarily true. Brass IS harder than copper, that is a fact (Copper = 2.5-3 Mohs scale, brass = 3-4 Mohs scale). What you are seeing is the difference in "machinability" of the the 2 materials. Brass machines EASIER than copper, even though brass is harder (and the difference is drastic if a small amount of lead or other elements are added to the brass alloy). The reason for this is that the materials that comprise most brass alloys act as a lubricant and chip-face burr remover during the machining process. What you are seeing with tool wear is expected. Since Brass has about twice the machinability rating of Copper, I would expect your tolling to last twice as long. Of course, Brass is still harder than copper and may or may not contribute to more barrel wear. | |||
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Naki: SO: Which is harder, brass or barrel steel? George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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Using Cutting Edge Bullets in my 375 H&H and 450/400 NE, I have never had any brass fouling. What does that mean? I don't know, but barrels are much easier to clean. Brass bullets shoot very well in these two rifles, my 275 Rigby is next to try them in. | |||
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Barrel steel is slightly harder than brass, at 3.8-4 on the Mohs scale. On the Rockwell "B" scale, which is probably more appropriate to this discussion, the materials in question are rated as follows; Copper = 49 Brass = 63 4140 barrel steel = 100 Interestingly, 4140 barrel steel (chrome-moly) and 416 stainless barrel steel have virtually the same exact hardness. As for machinability, it has little to do with hardness. The following are AISI machinability ratings for the materials in this thread (ranked hardest to machine to easiest); Copper = 0.60 MR 4140 Chrome-moly = 0.60 MR 416 Stainless = 0.90 MR Brass = 2.40 MR So in essence, brass is pretty hard, but easy to machine. | |||
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Desert, might want to check those barrel hardness numbers. Barrels run around 25-36 Rc depending on maker. About 3-4 times harder than either the brass or copper used for bullets. Mil spec for rifle barrels is 28-32 Rc. The B scale tops out at 99 and is invalid over that due to the indenter geometry. Fun fact for the day. Rb testers will report above 99, but that doesn't mean it is a good number. For the OP's question, none of the commonly used bullet materials will wear out a barrel. Even the steel jacketed ones take forever to do any noticeable damage. Steel jackets have been used as long as copper and still are for heavy solids (Woodleigh, Hornady) and military bullets. You could shove brass bullets down a barrel for as long as you wanted and it would do nothing to the steel. Add hot expanding gas and you have erosion. Brass is a better material from a friction perspective as it has a much lower coefficient of friction against steel than copper does. This is a big part of why it machines easier and doesn't gall on the tooling. The shoot in a clean barrel instruction is because brass has a higher yield strength than copper, and will not deform as easily as it travels down the barrel. It takes more pressure to engrave brass on the rifling, and it won't conform to the reduced bore size from the fouling. It plows through the fouling, raising pressure as it does. The driving bands help reduce the pressure for the rifling to engrave, just like on the copper mono's. They are cut slightly undersize to accommodate barrel variation and not increase pressure in a tight bore see why above in yield strength comment. The driving bands do the job of sealing up the bore just fine after they engrave the rifling and extrude to fill the groove. Barrel wear or better termed erosion is from the hot expanding gases and to a very small degree bullets scrubbing hard carbon deposits down the bore. The cooler the steel in the bore stays the longer it will last. Jeremy | |||
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Thank you. That was helpful for us non-metallurgical, non-machinist hunters. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I have no issue shooting brass or copper in all my guns including vintage doubles. I think I have only used Northforks and CEB in doubles. Some Barnes in bolt guns but not many. Its funny as quite a few of my doubles only really like one or the other. Been playing with a Westley Richards 400 a lot lately and it loves the Northforks but not the CEB's. The last 470 load I worked up was the other way around. I like both mono's a lot. The only bad thing about the Northforks is the price, but it's really not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. Mac | |||
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