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one of us |
Gentlemen I was on the range this morning working up a load for my 6.5x55 and Barnes X 140 grains. I shot a few strings of 3 shots using 43-45 grains of Reloader 19. The ammo simply would not group. They were all over the place 8-12 inches apart. On closer inspection the bullet seems to keyhole print the target suggesting the bullet was not stabilised! MV 2400 fps The rifle is a sweet shooter and grouped into 3/4 inch with Nosler partitions before and after I tested the Barnes. Anyone got any suggestions? ------------------ Richard | ||
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One of Us |
Deerdogs - Welcome to the problem with Barnes bullets. Great bullets, but some guns have trouble shooting them straight. The best course of action is begin playing with seating depth and load development. Barnes seems to come right when loaded at or near max pressures. I have never had much luck with Barnes bullets. I stick with Nosler Partition and the Partition Golds for most small and medium caliber requirements. They always perform beautifully. | |||
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| one of us |
A 6.5 with a 1:9.5" twist will not stabilise a bullet that is longer than 1.1" and that is about 110 grains in a monometal bullet and about 130 grains in jacketed lead bullets. If you use boattail bullets, drop another 10 grains off those weights. ------------------ | |||
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| <CalleT> |
How much difference is there between monometal bullet vs.bimetal bullet when it comes to rifletwist? And in what way does a boattail effect twistration? I have shot 35mm long 6.5's 107gr. monometal bullets in two different twists both 200mm and 220mm. They stabilized in the 200mm but not in the 220mm or rightly they were nearly stabilized but tumbled in hard wind. Have also tried 98gr 32mm long monometal bullets, do they need more or less spin than the 200mm barrel? Good shooting CalleT | ||
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| one of us |
Gerard: you are the first person i have heard say something about the max bellet length. where do you get your information? is there a formula you use to compute this? i'm not disputing your statement, but it would be nice to know this sort of thing ahead of time. | |||
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| One of Us |
According to Shilen for 6.5mm bullets.. A 1:8 Twist Rate will stabilize bullets heaver than 130gr. A 1:9 Twist Rate will stabilize bullets of 130gr and lighter. Barns makes 140gr, 130gr, 120gr. and 100gr bullets in the 6.5mm. As Martindog and Gerard pointed out, switch to a lighter bullet or go back to Nosler. Solid copper bullets do not contain lead, which is heaver than copper, therefore, they are longer than a composite bullet in the same weight. Longer bullets have different stabilization issues than shorter bullets and they eat up valuable case capacity. | |||
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| <CalleT> |
According to the program I have weight has nothing to do with what rifletwist is required. Only diameter and length. But of course in most cases one thinks of bimetal bullets, but what happens when monometal bullets are used? :confused Good shooting Callet | ||
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one of us |
CalleT, nothing happens with copper bullets. A 120 gr. copper bullet is simply longer than a 120 bullet that's mostly lead. Length (and the velocity achieved) determines required twist. Ditto with boat tails. Boat tail bullets are longer than flat base bullets of the same weight. Thus requiring more twist to be stable. There are several programs that calculate required twist using the Greenhill formula, Pointblank and Win gyro are two that come to mind. HTH, Dutch. | |||
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| one of us |
We have been conditioned into thinking bullet weight in many instances where it has nothing to do with the equation. Twist is one of those instances and wind drift and trajectory are as well. There is a neat twist calculator at http://www.realguns.com/calc/riflingtwist that cuts out a lot of calculating. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Thanks for all the replies especially Gerard. I am afraid I have given you duff information. The twist is 1:9 not 1:9.5 as I mentioned in my original post. The speeds my short 20 barrel is capable of seem to prohibit me from using a long-for-weight bullet like the Barnes X. Funny thing is that my rifle shoot nicely with the 160 grain Hornady RN at 2375 fps. ------------------ Richard | |||
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Moderator |
Deerdogs Thanks for the info, I think I will stick to standard bullets. I can't see the point of spending $50 on a box of X's, just to find out they wont shoot well in my rifle! And as none of my shooting mates shoot a 6.5 I'll be stuck with them! While we are talking about bullets, why don't the bullet companys put out sample boxes, say of 20 or so bullets, so you can see if they will shoot in your rifle? If they do you can buy more, if they don't you've only bought 20! Gerard Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not having a go at you, but didn't the 6.5 military round have a 156gr projectile (or there abouts)? Does anybody out there know the twist of a military 6.5 barrel? I read somewere that a 6.5 bullet takes about 200m to go to sleep, has anybody found this as well? Bakes | |||
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| <Martindog> |
Military barrel twist = 1 in 7.8". 156 RN was jacketed lead. Being RN design, this was probably shorter than an all copper 140 spitzer (especially a BT Spitzer). ALso, I'm sure the weight disribution has an effect on stability and I would guess the weight is distributed farther forward on the RN design than on the Spitzer. I'm not sure when it happened, but somewhere along the way the Swedes adopted a 140/144 grain spitzer in their military load. It shot well through the same barrel, flattened trajectory and extended the range at which the round was effective. Martindog | ||
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| one of us |
Bakes, We used to offer a small pack of bullets for testing until we expanded the range beyond 50 or so bullets. With a range that covers 128 different bullets now, it is not feasable to double up on the packaging, labels, price lists and inventory. I also feel that a reasonable evaluation of a bullet will use a minimum of 30 to 40 bullets. You won't believe how often we are asked for five or ten bullets for "testing". I am not so sure that I want to be part of a ten bullet evaluation because that is more like the luck of the draw.  We spend a lot of time over ensuring that the right bullet is used for a particular application because it is so easy to buy something that will not work in a particular rifle. When one can not get a good result with a combination of components, there is always a technical explanation for what is happening. Often a lot of hassles can be forestalled by following the manufacturers recommendations for anything. Almost like "If all else fails, read the instructions" but doing it in advance.------------------ | |||
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| <Hunter - DownUnder> |
bakes, Your right the 6.5x55 military pill is 156gn. These shoot very tight groups from my 96. Speer make excellent copies of these bullets. The military projectile was also boat tailed. | ||
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| <Exercion> |
Hunter _Downunder, Speer makes a 156gr bullet? That's news to me, I know they have a 140gr flatbased one. A bit more info would be great because I shoot a lot of 6.5x55. Currently using Sierra matchking 140gr's which seem to duplicate the 14ogr boattail military spitzers but would like to try the heavier bullets. | ||
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| Moderator |
Gerard WHAT...read the instructions FIRST! But then I wouldn't be a red blooded Aussie male!  I checked out your web site, WOW you have a good looking if unusual product, I wouldn't mind 30-40 of those pills myself (for testing purposes you understand)  Bakes | |||
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| <Hunter - DownUnder> |
Exercion, I have a few packets in the shop. Are you in Australia? I'm having problems getting on the SPeer website at the moment but I'll post info as soon as I get it. Model Number etc. They are Matchkings of course. Bakes, Maybe we should import a few of the GS bullets and flog them round Aussie. No shortage of 6.5s being used here... Gerard, Do you have a distributer in Australia? | ||
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| one of us |
We do not have a distributor in Australia or NZ, e-mail me and we can discuss. ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
I tried GS 110 gr bullets in my 6.5 x 55. I got keyholing and +12" groupings at 100m with 3 different loadings, not exhaustive testing I admit. But with the Sierra 140gr I can shoot just on an inch all the time. I use his big solids in my big bores with no problem, but I think my 6.5 and his long 1.3" bullets don't make a happy couple. | |||
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| Moderator |
HunterDU Belive it or not the 6.5 is not real common up here in the territory, nor the 7x57 or 8x57. You can still buy factory rounds for them but only PMC or Winchester and when you find a gun shop who has them (Remmington or Norma forget it). I walked into a gun shop on the outskirts of Darwin two weeks ago, and asked for a box of "7mm mauser thanks" the lady behind the counter gave me a box of 7mm Rem Mag.I informed her of her mistake she then wanted to know if 7mm mauser was the same as 7x57, yes I said but she checked with the on site gunsmith and he had to look it up!!! The most common calibres up here are your .308,30-06,300 win mag and such. Did you say you had a gun shop? Do you do mail order? Any chance of e-mailing me some details of the shop? Bakes e-mail: acbakes@austarnet.com.au | |||
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| <Hunter - DownUnder> |
About the only ammo you can find in Oz is PMC or Winchester 139 and 140gn respectively. Howver the rifles and handload componants are abundant. It's a great calibre for this country and I've just written an article on the cal to published in Australian Shooter. I do not profess to be an expert on the 6.5 but I am an ardent admirer, the article is more about it's place as a mid sized calibre for Australian Conditions. I don't own the gun shop but I do work there a few days a week. I'm an IT consultant who works some unusual hours, on my days off I work in the shop and give the owner some time to actually do some shooting. (and me time to reload and spend money )The Shop is Razorback Sports, Ph :02 9630 0088. 13 Seville ST Nth Parramatta, 2151 A web site is in the process of being updated.. I'm off to Bourke next week for a 4 day cull on a mates property. I'll be taking the 6.5 with 120gn BT's. I really want to try a 140gn SST but they dont make them yet.. We do mail order, that's what the www site is about give me 2 weeks and she'll be done. Gerard, I'll drop you a line about the GS range. The smaller calibres would probably sell quite well out here (as well as custom / premium bullets do) but I doubt we'd get much call for anything bigger than .375. | ||
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| <Hunter - DownUnder> |
Oh Bakes. Will be up your way next year. A mate has just got a buff concession also pigs, camels, donkeys, scrub bulls etc. He is a professional guide from NSW. So I'll be shooting for about 10days then doing the whole of the NT by 4x4 and hopefully a sizable layup at a Darwin pub Any of you Overseas members who haven't been to Australia before, It's a great place with good shooting, great people and everythings half price. (US$1=A$2). We are, contary to nasty rumours started by Kiwis, a 1st world country, we just have some nice untouched parts..... | ||
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| <Exercion> |
Hi Hunter_Downunder, I'm not in Australia, and am looking forward to the Speer info. My search of them shows 120 and 140gr bullets but nothing heavier. | ||
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| one of us |
Speer does not to my knowledge offer anything heavier than the 140. Sierra makes a nice 160 semi-pointed that I use in my 6.5x55. Hornady makes a 160 and of course Norma has a fine 156. Bullet shape can have some effect on stability. Apart from the fact that a RN bullet is shorter for the same weight, The round nosed bullet also carries more weight near the periphery of the bullet which results in slightly greater gyroscopic stability at the same rotational speed. Regards, Bill. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: Thanks Bill! | |||
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| Moderator |
H-D-U Hope the shooting trip goes well, there are some big pigs around, I chased a huge boar last night in the work truck, his back line was just under the bonnet of a Hilux. If you are in Katherine drop in and we'll have a beer. Just go to the front gate of the RAAF base and ask for "Bakes". Unfortunatly a guided tour will not be available as security at the moment is a bit tight! I'll keep an eye out for the web site and your article,I've just finished one for sporting shooter, now I just have to get it published!(have to wait and see on that one!!!) Bakes | |||
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| <Hunter - DownUnder> |
Bill your spot on, Sorry everyone. Temporary lapse of sanity. Speer/Sierra bit mixed up...Teach me to post when half asleep As stated Speer only make the two bullets for the 6.5. Sierra make a large range from 84gn through to 160gn. The 160gn HPBT replicates a military load quiet nicely. I use the 120gn Spitzers for pigs and they work nicely. I want some Hornady 129gns. I've ordered them in and will try asap. Bakes, Will certainly drop by the RAAF base for a beer. Shame the tour is off, I can get used to mess price for beer pretty easy | ||
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| Moderator |
H-D-U I used the 129 hornady (and 120gr Sierra's) on Monday to knock over 3 boars and 2 sows, no pig went more than about 5 meters before droping. Except for one big boar, if you go to spear hunting you'll see my post to RAB about that pig. Good bullets I think I'll buy some more of them! And don't worry, the messes are off base! bakes | |||
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