I shoot quite a bit, nost of it is using large bore revolvers and rifles of various calibers. Hardly any of it is from solid bench rest but more so in hunting conditions and field positions.

So I am asking just how accurate does one need to be?

Using a Harris or Stoney point, or simply shooting prone off a rolled up coat, just how well does one need to be able to put shots into a 8" circle at lets say 300yds, 2" 3" 4" groups, and of how many consecutive shots???

I guess it depends on how critical it is for you to hit your target where you want to. For varmints, you've got a really small window; maybe 2-4" at any distance, so you need reliable accuracy. For bigger game, you have a bigger target area, so you may be able to do well with 8" target area.

I have a friend who loves to shoot elk & deer at 300-400 yards, just because he can. But he's military, and 300 yards is no big deal. His longest elk was 320 yards with a 7mm Mag and good optics, straight through the heart. While you have more room for error with a bigger animal, I think there's nothing wrong with putting a bullet exactly where you want it.

What do you intend to hunt?

One concept that I've always found useful is the "minute of ..."

I opine that the critical hit zone of an Elk is about a foot in diameter. My .338 WM is sighted at 300 yards. It is abt 6" high at 100 and has about a 6" drop at 350 yards. Therefore, the rifle shoots within "minute of Elk" out to 350+ yards assuming I can shoot well.

On a good day I shoot about 2" groups at 300 yards with that rifle from a really good rest.

The best way to tell how good you have to be at 100yds to be able to shoot 8" group's at 300yds is to sight in your rifle at 100yds them practice at 300yds! As for how many consective shots, try for one and work your way up! That may sound snotty and I am sorry but 300yds is a long way. You will never be a consistent 8" shot at 300yds unless you practice, practice, practice!!!

Now if you don't use a solid bench to test the loads, you'll never really know if it's you or the load that can't do 8" at 300yds; if you don't do 8" at 300yds. Could be you are a great shot and your load stinks. Or it could be you need practice, how will you know if you don't really know what your rifle is doing?

Just a thought!

I am of the two opinion group. Lever gun shooters should be able to shoot minute of pie plate to 150 yards, and everything else they use, they should be able to shoot 2 MOA at a minimum in order to be a reliable 300 yard hitter. We hunters owe animals a clean, honorable death.

mstarling,

What it your midrange trajectory when your 6" high at 100yds? Somewhere out there you probally go over your 12" target!

Following data from Pact MKIV:

200gr nosler pat @ 2900fps
vital zone 12"
max P.B. range 366yds
max P.B. zero 312yds
zero @ 100 yds +4.5"
At 200 yds you should be +5.7", that's at +4.5 @ 100yds. In theory, if your 1 1/2" higher at 100 yds, you are also 1 1/2" higher at 200 yds and out of your 12" target area. At 350yds you should be -3.9" then -6" @ 366yds.

Now if your using a heavier bullet, it get's a bit worse!

Everything the same but changing to a 8" circle,your max P.B. range would be 312 yds and you'd never rise over 4" above line of sight; that @150 yds. At 350 yds, you'd only be -8.2" so a shot 1/2 way up the chest is a good shot. That is assuming you really need to shoot at 350 yds.

buckshot,

Ya snuck that in while I was writting, good post!!!

3 consecutive shots into a 6 inch group would be about max for deer.

Ok, so for the most part, depending on the intended target, being game or varmint, roughly 2 moa or less at the furtherest range that would be considered for the target.

So in working up loads in various calibers, and working with the individual rifles and revolvers to the point I know what their capabilities are, both as far as the accuracy as well as the ballistics for the particular load they are shooting, I generally strive for, and most of the time get sub MOA groups from all of them out to at least 100yds from the bench rest. I do use the bench, chrono, several ballistic programs, and years of experience, to work up loads and check out the differences of drops on each and every one of them.

With the big bore revolvers that I use, I generally set up and shoot every 25 yds out to 100. I mostly sight them in dead on at 50 yds. For the areas I use them, this gives me the max effective range on the intended targets I will use them on. I use medium to heavy for caliber bullets that will drive home through what ever they impact with. I have never lost anything with them to date. If it was hit, the shot was good, and if it ran it was only for a short distance and then recovered.

For the rifles, it depends on the caliber, and intended use. For whitetails, I have several rifles that I hunt with which will all put shots into neat little clovers at ranges out to 300yds. They will also hold well into sub MOA groups out to 600yds, and some beyond. This is also from using the rest mentioned above, and in field hunting conditions. Now this doesn't mean I head out in whatever the good Lord throws my way and attempt hitting a deer at 600yds in unfavorable conditions. However, with a 5 mph or less wind, the right one would be hard pressed to walk away should I decide to take it.

Most of my shooting year round is on feral hogs. Some folks consider them game animals, some folks consider them a plague. Well I consider them far better tabel fare than any whitetail, but by the same token rank them no higher than what some rank PD or ground hogs. They provide year round hunting, but depending on the circumstances, they may or may not end up in the freezer. They are however always taken as quickly and humanly as the best trophy elk or white tail would be. If I can get close I will, if not, I will get the shot I want or not shoot. But if I do shoot, no matter the range, I am confident in the abilities of both myself and the combo I am using at the time, to hit where I aim and do the intended job.

This past weekend I was shooting out to 1150 yds. This was from a table top, with the rifle resting on a Harris bi-pod and a rear bag. My group, if you could call it that, was just under 14" for 3 shots in the conditions I was shooting. This is the furtherest I have ever intentionally shot at anything in my life. I was testing out a new rifle and loads to determine both the BC of the bullet, and the capabilities of the load. As a result, I have determined that way more practice will be involved before either myself or the load can be verified at this particular range. Howeer at 500 - 700yds, this particular combo will work just fine for anything I decided to shoot from PD's to elk.


The white spot measures 2.5" in dia., and the whole plate measure 19/5" across, and is set up at 500yds. With the constant changing winds across the field we shoot, coupled with the different positions, rest, and mirage, you get a real persoective on just what any particular load can do. The loads are all worked up at distance of at least 100yds, some further. Each load is verified with reguards to groups, drops, velocities, and energy before ever hitting the field. Once there, the only factor left is the ability of the shooter to do their part, and as has been mentioned, practice is a never ending routine.

Fire 12 to 16 rounds with the same load in a specific shooting position in the same (weather)conditions and range and determine your MOA.
Knowing this, and knowing the possible diameter of a deadly shot on an animal, you can calculate your shooting range at that animal, be it prairiedog or elk. Too close in your opinion? Reload and practice. If you know your capabilities you get confidence and your hunting trip will not be spoiled.
Nice day,
Jan.

quote:

just how well does one need to be able to put shots into a target at lets say 300yds, 2" 3" 4" groups, and of how many consecutive shots???

IMO if you can shoot from a bench three consecutive shots into a 5" circle at 300 yards you have more than enough accuracy in the gun to go deer hunting or anyother big game hunting. Bear in mind that a 5" group means the bullets are hitting within 2 1/2" from point of aim and at 300 yards this is darn good shooting. Yes, many guns will do much better than this but rest assured there are a lot that won't come close.

Obviously the big question is how good can the shooter shoot that same gun under field conditions.

You need to first of all establish that the gun shoots well and after that you can shoot from approximated field conditions such as over fence posts, across logs, or other possible field conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
I shoot quite a bit, nost of it is using large bore revolvers and rifles of various calibers. Hardly any of it is from solid bench rest but more so in hunting conditions and field positions.

So I am asking just how accurate does one need to be?

Using a Harris or Stoney point, or simply shooting prone off a rolled up coat, just how well does one need to be able to put shots into a 8" circle at lets say 300yds, 2" 3" 4" groups, and of how many consecutive shots???

My personal criteria is determined after hunting season and by weather I'm eating beef or venison...

a friend's ready answer when asked how his day's fishing was is "there are fresh fish days and there are MrsPauls days..."
(He keeps a boat on the Jersy shore and does his fishing in the atlantic)

I don't get wound-up about deer and a big rack leaves me yawning....unless it's ANOTHER KIND of "rack" and even then the really big ones aren't as nice... and in either case the meat of the creature they ar e attached to isn't as
sweet

But then again I frequently use a varmint rifle
to deer hunt and the accuracy criteria is far more demanding (Bottle caps at 100yds, golf balls at 200yds, tennis balls at 300....)

And my deer loading is every bit as accurate
as my "Splatterous Maximus" loads...

but then again, after "accidentially" shooting a doe in the eye with a 40grain Barnes VLC (only the the bullet in the chamber was accidential, it was SUPPOSED to be a 50gr XLC
the deer fall down so fast you'd swear it was teleported away... and that's just the 223...

Now for the 25-06....

Do those rifles NEED to be that accurate for deer? Do I need to be? No...
a preponderance of hunters armed with iron sighted winchester 94's in 30-30 bring home venison and typically a 4" group@100yds is spectacular for them...

AllanD

Thank you all for your comments. My main reason behind this post was due to the fact that I shoot and hunt, mostly, at longer ranges than a lot of hunters. I do not simply hail mary shots out on any animal, and my bang flop ratio is around 98%. This inludes, deer, varmints and feral hogs out to ranges pushing 600yds. Within the limits of the caliber or arm being used, all will easily keep shots under 1" at 100 yards, including a couple of the revolvers. The other revolvers will stay around the 1" area at 50 yds. This is from a solid rest. However, I do shoot them as mentioned above mostly from field type rest, once the load is verified as the best I can make it.

FOr most of the rifles I use 500yds is considered the max range that I will use them and as such the plate we have hung at this range see's a lot of use.

Not only is it used for testing of finial loads but also during some development as well. As you can see it does make practicing at longer ranges using field positions much more realistic and difficult. However after affirming an arm and load at this range, it affirms the capabilities of it at sometimes further, and definately at much closer ranges as well. It has become a great tool in my testing of different loads under varied wind conditions and the effect the wind has on the loads. Even the very best of bullets are effected at this range, and it definatly shows as a result. When testing at this range depending on the rifle, I do not change the scope setting from a previous zero of mostly 200yds. This allows me to determine not only my abilities but the loads ability as well. I do however have a couple of rifle in which this is the zero point and the loads definately show the differences.



Every deer which I have taken past 250yds has been dropped in their tracks due to the shot placemnt, and the fact I simply will not take the shot unless conditions are completly to my satisfaction, and their is no way to get closer.

For some there is always a way to get closer, but the terrain we hunt the most, does not provide this luxury. IT is flat open pasture with only grass which is usually been cut and bailed.

While I do hunt some areas where I could powder burn the hair on critters, I still will only take the shot I am happy with and confident of the results. As I mentioned in the above post, I practice under field hunting conditions, using the same loads, rest, and ranges that I will be exposed to. I shoot hundereds of rounds in doing so through several calibers which all see use during hunting season. Not only do I keep notes on all of it, but also check the same loads under different conditions and temps through out the year. This assures me of the fact that I know what I , as well as my equipment, are capable of when the time comes to make the decision.

Before I would ever take aim on any animal, the process has been tried and proven to the extreme. Then I still will work within the reasonable limits of the round being used at the time.

I have hunted every year since I was 6 and taken game in all of those years. Now in my mid 40's I mostly only do feral hog reduction. I would still take a tropy class deer should the oppurtunity present itself, but for the most part, simply reside to just enjoying watching them. This year I will be taking my grandson out with me to hopefully harvest his first hog. He has been with me many time in the past few years and knows that he wants to be a part of it. Still, I will be right there to guide him through the process of hitting the paper where he is aiming, well before we head into the woods.


I did not start this post as a discussion in ethics, as to me, it is up to each individual hunter as to their own standards and acceptable ranges. I was only intending to see what most considered an acceptable average of shots at a given range. As for myself, on varmints or game, each rifle, or handgun, I might using at the time, and under the presented conditions, imposes the determining factor at "that" paricular time and place. I am confident that when I decided to take, or not take, the shot at what ever the intended target, that I will have based the decision on more than just a hunch that I can hit it or not.