I have been aware of the "ladder method" for finding an accurate load & read a recent post here which has induced me to give it a try. I am going to first try it with my .338WM.

If I am satisfied with results I want to give it a go on a .300WM. Question here is: the .300WM will have a new barrel when I get it back from the smith. So, is the "ladder method" applicable to a new barrel? Or, should I break in the barrel first before doing the ladder? How many rounds? Twenty, 50, 100?

That is a really excellent question. Since you are having it re-barrelled, I'd go by what the actual Barrel Manufacturer recommends. Some give specific directions on what they believe works best in their barrels. Some that provide Hand Lapped barrels believe they are ready to shoot as you get them.

I typically go with 20 1-shot groups with Cleaning between each shot. Seems to work well on all the barrels I've ever had, whether Factory or Custom. Plus it Fire Forms some Cases.

What kind of barrel?

It it's a hand lapped barrel, break in will take all of about 5 rounds.

New barrel: clean it good, give it a few (hundred) strokes with JB paste and avoid letting it get too hot whilst you shoot it.

It might tighten up a miniscule amount after being shot a bit but the ladder results would still be the same relative to the different powders and bullets. (I think. I've never bought into the barrel break-in theory)

Barrel is NOT a "premium" replacement barrel; its a new, unfired, takeoff, factory (Winchester) barrel- $75 thru GunBroker. (Please, no comments about why I replaced barrel with factory barrel instead of "premium" after market barrel.)

In the past I have used several different break-in methods, but also settled on 20 shots, cleaning between each shot. From my reading, etc., it seemed most plausible. Although, recently, I read something proposing that breaking in a barrel is unnecesary.

I am always very conscientious about not letting barrel heat up. I have some JB Paste & maybe I will try it.

I loath barrel break in but I would do the 20, one shot clean after each shot break in. I would then shoot the ladder.

I think the JB paste treatment is more needed in a factory barrel than not. I can't honestly say if it makes the barrel more accurate or not since I do it before I fire the thing but I can say with assurance that it will make cleaning the rifle a lot easier and quicker.

Nothing wrong with using take-off barrels.

I agree with wasbeeman about the J.B. Paste. Then follow with a break-in regimen like Donald Nelson describes. Speedy Gonzalez has a nice article on barrel break-in. That is on the Brownells internet site. It is in the tech tips section.

If the throat seems to be rough, try a final finish treatment from G. David Tubb by way of Brownells. If the whole barrel still seems rough, check the LBT cast bullet website. They embed progressively finer grit into the surface of lead bullets; that keeps the grit grinding away at the tool marks all the way to the end of the barrel.

I had to jump through all the above mentioned hoops with one take-off barrel several years ago. It ended up being a pretty smooth barrel in the end. It even had lands and grooves after all the voodoo.

Good luck.

LD

I have used the Tubb polishing bullets and they indeed helped my barrels.

Olguy,
Winchesters are pretty average on break-in. Shoot one and clean each shot with a good copper solvent until patches come out clean. Repeat shooting 2 per volley. Might take 20 rounds.

My factory Winchester M70 Classic in .338 shoots sub moa with several loads. Let me know if you are looking for some load idea's.

olguy

The "ladder" method can assist finding an "accurate" load sometimes. However, you will never know if it is the best load givng accuracy and performance unless you adequately test the chosen componants. Suggest you break the barrel in and then use a more traditional method of load development. This will save you time, componants and sometimes a lot of frustration in the end. Most importantly it will assist you in finding the best load for your rifle that fits your needs. There are really no short cuts such as the ladder method promises.

Load up a series of loads for 3 shot groups spanning the "start' and "max" loads listed in manuals. Shoot over a chronograph. Select a load that gives a good 3 shot group, low ES and is in the velocity range you expect. Then tweek the load in .2 gr increments on both sides and test with 5 shot groups. If all is good confirm with a 10 shot group. Minimal testing should be at 100 yards with 200 yards being better. This should take only 35 - 40 shots per any different set of componants. When done you will know the rifles potential with those componants.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Load up a series of loads for 3 shot groups spanning the "start' and "max" loads listed in manuals.

For the '06, 165 grain bullet, H-4350 from 53 to 59 grains at .5 grain increments equals 36 loaded rounds

Shoot over a chronograph. Select a load that gives a good 3 shot group, low ES and is in the velocity range you expect. Then tweek the load in .2 gr increments on both sides and test with 5 shot groups.

10 more rounds

If all is good confirm with a 10 shot group.

10 more rounds for a total of 56 rounds

Minimal testing should be at 100 yards with 200 yards being better. This should take only 35 - 40 shots per any different set of componants.




When done you will know the rifles potential with those componants.

Larry Gibson

Hope the rifles I can shoot 5 shots touching don't know I never used a chronograph while working up a load.

rcmuglia

Hey dude, all that shotgun patterning must have messed you up.....1st off I never mentioned a .5 gr increment. Second Lyman lists, in the '06 with 165 gr bullets, a 52.5 - 57 gr spread with IMR4350, Speer lists a 52 - 56 gr spread with IMR4350. Hornady lists a spread of 49.6 - 55.3 gr with H4350. Hodgdon list 53 - 59 gr with H4350 (you must have wasted all afternoon figuring all this out and finding that one). So depending on how it's done 35 - 40 shots is still a reasonable figure. Why don't you break it down to .2 gr increments like your ladder test....probably because even you know that's not necessary with an '06 size case.

All this is rather essoteric as the OP is using a .338 or did you miss that one? Oh oh folks, there he goes off and running to research .338 loads to prove me wrong. RC, you really need to get a life

Larry Gibson

<----LG looking up 30-06 loads (Researchimus Maximus) after someone points out obvious mathematic errors.

Also known as Hypocritimus Gargantas or Overlydefensivus

Olguy,
Is the replacement barrel a stainless or chrome-moly?
In general, I have had much better results breaking in a stainless barrel with fewer shots than I have with any chrome-moly barrels. This also applies to barrel cleaning and copper fouling as my stainless barrel seem foul less and clean up faster.
If the barrel is not broke in and you use the ladder method or any other method for that matter, I doubt you would get any accurate findings if the barrel progressively fouls and the POI shifts continously from the fouling.

Rae: Stainless. We think alike; I too questioned how accurate load development would be without breaking in barrel first. That's why I raised the question. For first 20 rounds I clean with Barnes or Sweets after each shot. Then I start load development. I know it sometimes takes 200-300 rounds for a rifle to settle in- but that has not been my experience.

Question is: How many rounds to shoot before starting load development? I am thinking, after 20 rnd breakin, try a few factory loads and, if accuracy acceptable, then start load development. What say you all?

Larry: I load for various cartridges: 25-06, couple of .270 Win's, .308 Win., .300WSM,
.300WM & .338WM. I have for some years used the conventional method very much as you described. (My final "tweek" is adjustment of seating depth.) But, when I first read about Audette's ladder method I was intrigued- but not convinced. However, I kept running into references to it & descriptions of success by those who used it.

So, I decided to try it. The claims are that it is an improvement, shorter/quicker process using fewer components (hence, cheaper) and, in a sense, a shortcut.

Antelope: I have a good load for the .338: 68.0gr IMR 4350 wi 225gr Barnes TSX FB for avg. vel of 2885fps. It just hammers elk size critters. Recovered bullets look just like in Barnes ads. (Not all bullets recovered; but results still the same, DRT kills in most cases. A few travel 30 yds maybe?)

The following are just my opines.

I've have never understood why a shooter would pay a nice price for a good barrel and then think that it needs to be "polished" or broken in. So they apply abrasive compounds through the barrel, which by any stretch of the imagination is haphazard at best.

With today's modern manufacturing methods and measuring, wouldn't you think that a new barrel would be close to "real good'? Don't most barrels go through some lapping when manufactured?

I know that Woody over at L-W in Cummings GA. has a CNC lapping machine that "maps" the barrel for imperfections and then proceeds accordingly. Would you take a barrel like that and re-lap it?

The last NIB barrel I bought, besides my Mauser M 03 Barrels, was a .25 caliber Adams & Bennett and it piles 110 Accubonds on top of each other at 100 yards. No break in. We just cleaned it more often when we started. The Mauser barrels shoot great right out of the box.

Not trying to start a war and like I said at the top, just my opine. I figure it's your money and barrel you ought to be able to with it what you want.

quote:

Originally posted by olguy:
Question is: How many rounds to shoot before starting load development? I am thinking, after 20 rnd breakin, try a few factory loads and, if accuracy acceptable, then start load development. What say you all?

Olguy, I would let the barrel tell me if it's broke in or broken. After you do the 20 shoot and clean thing, I would try a few strings of 3 shots or 5 shots at 100 or 200 yards and then clean to see how fast and easily it cleans up. That's just me though.

There are always exceptions of course as I have a premium C-Moly barrel (cut rifling)that shoots fantastic now, but not until after having appox. 30-40 "break-in shots initially, but it now copper fouls at the muzzle so bad it is pathetic. It has between 200-300 rounds through it as of now.

Good luck.

Really, arguing about the ladder method is silly. If you never tried it go ahead and try it once and see what you think. I did and I believe that at least for my 760 it saved me time and components over my old method of shooting narrowing 3 or 5 shot groups down till a couple showed promise.

With 18 shots I found 2 loads that is already better than I expected to get for a 3 shot group and actually shoots 5 shots in what I expected 3 shots to do. These loads are 1/2 grain different so for fun I am loading 5 each of them and a tweak load in the middle. These will be shot thru the chrony for shits and giggles and what ever load groups best will be the load. Then I will load up a bunch and start getting used to the rifle for hunting.

Since I liked the results I got from this test I plan to try this method a second time on a Remington 700 I have in 30-06. I have yet to find a load my old way so I plan to use the same loads I used in the 760's ladder test only loaded out to a longer length for the bolt gun's ladder test.

quote:

Originally posted by olguy:
Question is: How many rounds to shoot before starting load development? I am thinking, after 20 rnd breakin, try a few factory loads and, if accuracy acceptable, then start load development. What say you all? ...

That is an excellent idea. It allows you to gather PRE Data(if you want to) as well as create more Fire Formed Cases.