How many of you all do this?

Do you only run your load development with fire-formed brass, or will virgin, FLR brass give the same results?

I did it for one rifle. Great technique if you need to use it.
But what are you forming from and to?

I only run load development with brass that has been once fired with a moderate load. This insures (in my mind anyhow) the brass was expanded to fit the chamber for that rifle.

Just fireforming without using expensive components like bullets and powder, not forming one chambering to another.

Then I wouldnt do it. You still need powder and primers. Plus when doing the cream of wheat technique the necks will stretch out really weird and require trimming. Would seem easier to me just to load up a cheap bullet and use them for offhand practice.

I think it may be the best thing to do logically. I guess I'm asking if anyone attempts load development with unfired, new cases.

I'm asking because I'm starting load development on the 7mm RUM and, with the short life expectency of the barrel, I don't want to hasten its demise. I did brass prep as normal on some virgin brass and loaded 2 Audettes ladders with different powders. I decided to check concentricity and it was absolutely aweful! I can actually see the bullet wobble. I called a friend who recommended the "cream of wheat" method and he says you can't evaluate accuracy with new brass; it must be formed to the chamber.

With the cream of wheat you're only using 10 grains of Herco or Blue dot to form so the only thing you're out is a primer.

Does anyone develop with virgin brass?

i never could get that method to work. i just go find some cheapo bullets and shoot them. you don't have to use a barrel burning load to fireform, but one what will go 35000 or so

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i never could get that method to work. i just go find some cheapo bullets and shoot them. you don't have to use a barrel burning load to fireform, but one what will go 35000 or so

HA! Nice Butch!

I did fireforming of 7.62 x 54R Russian to 8 x 56R Hungarian as well as 30/06 to 8 x 57mm. I tried that method with both and found that I only got good well formed cases with near enough full power loads with a proper projectile.

quote:

Originally posted by KimW9:
I did fireforming of 7.62 x 54R Russian to 8 x 56R Hungarian as well as 30/06 to 8 x 57mm. I tried that method with both and found that I only got good well formed cases with near enough full power loads with a proper projectile.

To clarify, I'm not fireforming from one chambering to another, just trying to fireform the proper case to the chamber.

quote:

To clarify, I'm not fireforming from one chambering to another, just trying to fireform the proper case to the chamber.

For that, I think the whole issue is a non-starter, such "fire formed" cases rarely make any noticible difference in later ammo.

It would be hard to the point of impossible, IMHO, to get enough chamber pressure with a COW load to do much to your cases anyway. The COW is only a starting place when greatly reforming cases.

I guess this is new to all of you on the forum.

I was hoping to get some feedback, but haven't so I checked the web and there's lots of info on how to do it.

http://accurateshooter.wordpre...-with-pistol-powder/

I have used cream of wheat or corn meal with reduced loads using IMR 4759 in several calibers with very good results. but haven't tried fire forming brass with either one.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I guess this is new to all of you on the forum.

I was hoping to get some feedback, but haven't so I checked the web and there's lots of info on how to do it.

http://accurateshooter.wordpre...-with-pistol-powder/

How to do it is easy, but you were asking if it should be done instead of using a bullet and a moderate load.
A case is not going to be fully expanded to fit your chamber under low pressures. If you want to start load developement without a fully formed once fired case that is up to you. Might not make any difference.
Cream of wheat is a great way to help form cases. But I do not believe this method was designed to "fireform" cases to your rifles chamber. If you dont want to fireform using a bullet and moderate pressure then I fail to see what using cream of wheat would accomplish if you are not trying to change the shape of the case.

Huh I'm currently frieforming cases for my 7mm Gibbs. Not your typical fireform like a Ackley improved. If I firformed cases like that I would have major issues everyone knwos you can't do that with the Gibbs cartrdiges. So this is what I do and majority of Gibbs owners do this.
First I size 30-06 case down to 7mm Gibbs, put 13-14 grs of bullseye then cornmeal then stuff it with toilet paper or papertowel. Then melt wax on it. Head out to the range and start pulling the trigger get perfect fireformed cases. So I don't know what some of you are doing and not getting cases to fireform to your chamber not enough pistol powder??? You do have to experiment with powder charge most folks find 13-15gr of bullseye works very well. Anyhow come home run thru sizing die trim the cases debur. Load them and go shoot... Again this is with the Gibbs case as most people will say not the easiest cases to make do to the steps you have to go thru. I beleive everyoen should have a cartridge like this it really brings you along with reloading gives you a better understanding.

quote:

Originally posted by 323:
First I size 30-06 case down to 7mm Gibbs, put 13-14 grs of bullseye then cornmeal then stuff it with toilet paper or papertowel. Then melt wax on it. Head out to the range and start pulling the trigger get perfect fireformed cases. ...

Is all the paper consumed, or do you have to rake it up?

Not being critical, just curious since I simply Fire Form with relatively inexpensive () bullets and Starting Loads, but do not have a Gibbs.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Does anyone develop with virgin brass?

I was working up a 25-06 Rem plains game load for my trip to Namibia using Barnes X flatbase 85gr molycoated bullets and Winchester brass. I tried many powders and finally settled on Accurate MagPro because it gave the highest velocity with good hunting accuracy. I wouldn't think of taking ump-teen times fired cases on a far-off hunting trip, so I prepped 20 new cases with just chamfering the case mouth and loaded them with my chosen components. I couldn't believe the results...I got smaller groups using virgin brass than with the same cases once fired. I thought it was a fluke so I tested again and again...same results. So I loaded up 60 new cases with only the necks chamfered and the flash holes prepped. I cycled every one through the magazine to be sure I had no surprises once I got to that far off land. I had a great safari and never once thought why a case fireformed to my chamber wouldn't be a better fit and give better accuracy. Sometimes you just don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Well I've use COW to form various PDK cases. Like the Gibbs I must move my shoulder forward. So I would form a false shoulder to provide head space use bullseye and TP at first I added COW but found simply a gr or two more powder did the same thing and less mess. Never found TP in the barrel.

I'm sorry I wouldn't worry about taking virgin RUM brass and forming it to my chamber prior to working up a load. MAYBE a target rifle. If you can see a difference in the group size working up with once fired and virgin you are a better man than me.

It certainly works for me.

My .404 Jeffery is using .375 RUM brass which I fire-form after sizing just enough to allow the new case to chamber. This means that the original .375 neck and much of the shoulder still remain.

I place about 20 grains of 2400 in the primed case and fill it almost to the mouth with Cream of Wheat. A bit of room is left to tuck a small square of tissue into the mouth to hold everything together.

Firing these "loads" vertically gives fully-formed cases with nice square mouths....firing horizontally gives uneven case mouths for some reason. The loads are LOUD, so don't do it in the neighborhood!

Reforming .375 RUM brass is far cheaper than buying .404 brass, even including the costs of the fire-forming load.

From a hunting perspective, virgin brass and 1x will give you similar results. In a match where fractions count, 1x is the way to go.

Well I loaded about 50 rounds of 7mm RUM with the COW load this morning to fire form. Except I used polenta (since I'm Italian and have to eat gluten-free, HA!) I took some pics to share with you all.

I'm loading for this rifle. It's a Remington 721 action that was originally chambered for 30-'06. As a kid, I had it rechambered for .300 Win Mag. Recently I had a 7mm RUM factory take-off barrel put on it, Leupold LR 6.5-20 target knobs-Varmint Hunter's reticle, Briley trigger, Score High muzzle brake and pillar bed job, Stoney Point rapid pivot bipods








"Charging" the cases that I have dropped 15 grains of Red Dot into already with polenta.



3/4 teaspoon of polenta was "max load" in my rifle! Ha!







Melt the parafin and seal the tops of the cases with a few drops from an eye dropper....








By the way, I have polenta and oatmeal with raisins for breakfast most mornings! It' not "just for breakfast" anymore!





Here's my makeshift "trap" out of a heavy plastic container. The polenta load was blowng out the bottom, so be careful.





I did the fireforming in my walkin cooler since I didn't want to drive all the way to the range.








I now have perfectly formed cases for my rifle's chamber.

quote:

was working up a 25-06 Rem plains game load for my trip to Namibia using Barnes X flatbase 85gr molycoated bullets and Winchester brass. I tried many powders and finally settled on Accurate MagPro because it gave the highest velocity with good hunting accuracy. I wouldn't think of taking ump-teen times fired cases on a far-off hunting trip, so I prepped 20 new cases with just chamfering the case mouth and loaded them with my chosen components. I couldn't believe the results...I got smaller groups using virgin brass than with the same cases once fired. I thought it was a fluke so I tested again and again...same results. So I loaded up 60 new cases with only the necks chamfered and the flash holes prepped. I cycled every one through the magazine to be sure I had no surprises once I got to that far off land. I had a great safari and never once thought why a case fireformed to my chamber wouldn't be a better fit and give better accuracy. Sometimes you just don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Hey onefunzr2! Fireforming before you develop the load has a reason. You are gonna use your brass more than once hopefully, so develop the load in formed brass. Unless you plan on shooting them once and discarding?

I've been fireforming wildcats for 45 odd years and so have many on this forum. You need to do a search using "fireforming" probably to get the hits you are looking for...there is tons of information scattered all over this forum and many others concerning fireforming brass.

I DON'T see any need to fireform a case as you indicated...load testing will do it for you.

I'm not to enthusiastic about "ladder" or other such ways ofload developement ...to me it is a waste of components and time and you want to develop the load you will be using WITH the bullets, powder, primers, COAL that you expect to use.

So pick out a couple of bullets, benchrest prep your brass to eliminate as many variables as you can...make sure your rifle is tuned and bedded, the scope base and rings are tight and receiver screws torqued(you'd be surprised how many people I've seen at the range that didn't do this and are scratching their heads wondering "What the He**)...again to keep from wasting components chasing groups...pick out a powder and primer, measure the chamber/bullet COAL, start with a load near the top velocity/pressure and work up slowly, watching for pressure signs to the velocity/accuracy you want and STOP when you reach the recommended top load.

Keep in mind, for the most part with IMR powders, that reducing the pressure by 10% only looses you 5% in velocity and usually results in a 100% increase in accuracy.

You also have to keep in mind that unless you benchrest prep your ammo your accuracy results will vary greatly and may not reach your expectations.

I've used just about all the faster burning pistol and shotgun powders at one time or another...I pick out whatever powder I have the least of and want to use up...depending on the burning rate and the size of the case I work up a load that forms and irons out the case to fit the chamber. I don't have any specific amount for any specific powder...you just start on the low side, 10-15 gr and work up....SLOWLY...fill the case with cornmeal, wad up a 1" square of blue shop towel and stuff it in the case mouth. Works great, is quick and cheap.

I also have use grits, cream of rice, polenta, cornmeal...just about any ground up grain will work...NOT FLOUR of any kind...flour can pack and act like a bullet or barrel obstruction or actually explode or ignite very quickly.

Good luck

Hey FOOBAR,

If you check back in the thread, I began by prepping my brass and loading Audettes ladders with the bullet and powders I intend to use. I checked the concentricity and was appalled! Shooting the ladders would have been worthless because the bullets were not seated concentrically. I asked my gunsmith and he said that all bets were off when loading non fired brass for accuracy.

New brass is so undersized for factory chambers that even when you FLR not much sizing takes place. I checked the concentricity of the sized, unloaded brass case necks and it was horrible. I'm using Redding dies; brand new.

I'll report back with the concentricity of the loaded, fireformed brass for the ladders. I think that fireforming will be the cure.

quote:

I'm not to enthusiastic about "ladder" or other such ways ofload developement ...to me it is a waste of components and time and you want to develop the load you will be using WITH the bullets, powder, primers, COAL that you expect to use.

I have no idea what you mean by this. The Audettes "ladder" is absolutely the best way to determine your rifle's accuracy node.

I've only used the methode to make cases from one caliber to another, like 404jeffery from 375RUM. Works great! I use pistol powder, what ever I have on hand, a near full case of CofW & then just light a candle & drip wax to fill/plug the neck (easier than the eye dropper thing).

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I'm loading for this rifle. It's a Remington 721 action that was originally chambered for 30-'06. As a kid, I had it rechambered for .300 Win Mag. Recently I had a 7mm RUM factory take-off barrel put on it, Leupold LR 6.5-20 target knobs-Varmint Hunter's reticle, Briley trigger, Score High muzzle brake and pillar bed job, Stoney Point rapid pivot bipods

I haven't had the time to read this thread thoroughly, but this post made me realize that the results could be significantly different whether using belted cases or not. In this situation it seems that the case will headspace on the belt, which is a good thing. For non-belted cases the process and the end result could be very different.

Just a thought.

KB

quote:

I guess this is new to all of you on the forum. I was hoping to get some feedback,

Not at all. Our feed back is we question the validity of doing it for the purposes you intend.

The 7mm RUM is not a belted magnum and even though the Win Mag family is belted, I believe they headspace off of the shoulder. I loaded some brand new Nosler .300WM brass that had excessive headspace and showed bad primer flattening with a proven load.

quote:

Belts on the belted magnum case were put there for headspace control and not for strength, as is sometimes claimed. Once the case has been fired, the life of the case and perhaps accuracy, can be improved by headspacing off the shoulder rather than the belt

posted for reference, L to R, 6.5 Creedmoor, .264 Winchester Magnum, 7mm Remington Ultra Magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:

quote:

I guess this is new to all of you on the forum. I was hoping to get some feedback,

Not at all. Our feed back is we question the validity of doing it for the purposes you intend.

Like I said, I'll post results as to validity after I neck size and load the ladders. I will check concentricity.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
... start with a load near the top velocity/pressure and work up slowly, watching for pressure signs to the velocity/accuracy you want and STOP when you reach the recommended top load. ...

If there are any Beginners reading this, I'd strongly encourage you to ignore the above highlighted recommendation and begin with the actual Starting Loads in the Manuals. If you are in such dire financial straits that you can not afford the few Bullets, Primers and Powder to Reload properly, then it might be best for you to stick with Factory Ammo.

The problem is that not all rifles can handle the Pressures above Starting Loads, without showing Pressure Indications. That is not all bad though, as some of the very most accurate rifles are not the fastest for a specific caliber.

Best of luck to you folks.

Well, I just finished loading two audette's test ladders. One with US-869 and one with T-870. Before doing so, I checked neck concentricity of the neck sized brass. The fireformed neck sized brass was virtually perfect only having .002" total runout. The seated Accubonds varied from .002" to .005" total indicated runout. This translates to .001" to .0025".

The brand new brass when sized had .005" neck runout and total indicated runout with seated Accubonds was as bad as .012". Yuk!

The COW fireforming did the trick without wasting powder, bullets, and barrel life (which is about 1000 rounds for the RUM)

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

The brand new brass when sized had .005" neck runout and total indicated runout with seated Accubonds was as bad as .012". Yuk!

The COW fireforming did the trick without wasting powder, bullets, and barrel life (which is about 1000 rounds for the RUM)

How about just loading the new brass without sizing it? I'll bet you'll be surprised how well it shoots.

I suspect you have a problem with your sizing die, not your new brass.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Hey onefunzr2! Fireforming before you develop the load has a reason. You are gonna use your brass more than once hopefully, so develop the load in formed brass. Unless you plan on shooting them once and discarding?

As I said, I loaded 60 rounds. I used 3 to sightin once at the concession. I shot these 4 Springbok plus 2 more and 1 Hyrax. So I have 50 rounds left. They should last me the rest of my life hunting plains game as I don't use that rifle for anything else anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
How about just loading the new brass without sizing it? I'll bet you'll be surprised how well it shoots.

I suspect you have a problem with your sizing die, not your new brass.

Nothing wrong with the dies as shown by the neck sizing of the fireformed brass. Virtually no runout.

The problem is with the new brass. Now whether its just a characteristic of this Remington Brand 7mm RUM brass, I don't know. I've loaded new brass before after sizing, but have never checked concentricity (recently got the gauge).

I sure will from now on and will never load brand new brass that has been simply run through the sizer die for accuracy again.

The other factoid is that now that the brass is fireformed it has more volume. This is nothing unusual, but it has to effect the outcome of an accuracy ladder. Combustion chamber size is different leading to pressure differences.

onefunzr2!

You need to shoot more!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

Nothing wrong with the dies as shown by the neck sizing of the fireformed brass. Virtually no runout.

Did you necksize or full length size when it gave you the runout?

quote:

The other factoid is that now that the brass is fireformed it has more volume. This is nothing unusual, but it has to effect the outcome of an accuracy ladder. Combustion chamber size is different leading to pressure differences.

No, you don't have more volume, pressure-wise. Your volume is constrained by your chamber, not your brass. The brass case upsets to fill the chamber early in the combustion process. You may be able to fit a few more grains in fire-formed cases, but a load that fits in a new case will produce the same pressure as the same load in a fire-formed case.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rcamuglia:

Nothing wrong with the dies as shown by the neck sizing of the fireformed brass. Virtually no runout.

Did you necksize or full length size when it gave you the runout?

quote:

[QUOTE]New brass is so undersized for factory chambers that even when you FLR not much sizing takes place. I checked the concentricity of the sized, unloaded brass case necks and it was horrible. I'm using Redding dies; brand new.

I always FLR brand new brass. Even FLR'd, the brass concentricity was terrible simply because the die barely touches it.

I called a friend who recommended the "cream of wheat" method and he says you can't evaluate accuracy with new brass; it must be formed to the chamber.

==================================================

With any new gun/bbl, I always do a barrel break-in. The caliber generally determines how many shots I will drive down the barrel, but usually a hundred is about the average. I start with new brass and use this "once shot" brass for development. This whole thing to me has never been explained to me in any way that makes sense anyway and feel it to be a waste of time. I have talked to many others that feel the same way. After all it's cup/chamber pressure we are talking about and we know that case expansion happens before the bullet seats in the landings assuming your not below a specific [CP]. So unless I'm a complete tard (I think I may be partial), someone will have to convince me otherwise and make it "make sense"!

I have had the same experience as rcamuglia is explaining. Only my problem was with new W-W 250 Savage brass. After case prep(resize to round neck id/chamfer neck od & id &flash hole) I loaded up some of my 86 gr. loads. I had .005-6 runout. And I couldn't get them strait with my Redding Competition Seater Die.
I shot them anyway since I don't have to worry very much about burning out the barrel with this cartridge.
And with every 5 shot group I would get at least one flier.
With the first reloads I'm getting .001-2 total runout and the fliers are gone.