How much below the recommended starting charge can one safely go? I am shooting a .257 Wby Mag with 100 grain Sierra GameKings. I am using RL22 powder and Winchester mag primers. I have some excellent grouping full power loads, but was wondering about trying to produce some lighter charge loads for use in areas where I wouldn't be shooting over 100 yds. Say, a load that would produce something on the order of .250 Savage or .257 Roberts ballistics. I have read in a number of forums that reducing slow burning powder charge volume may result in a "second detonation" and I also know that there is disagreement on this subject. Lee's manual lists a starting charge of 69 grains (they also list a max charge of 69 grains?). Alliant powder's suggested starting charge is 61 grains. How much below 61 grains could I safely go?

Don't do it with slow powder! If you want slower go to lighter PUBLISHED LOADS of faster burning powder like varget and 4064 etc.

Concerns of reduced loads with slow burning powders may be well founded.

You might find the answer you are looking for in powders with burn rates ranging from Blue Dot through IMR 4198. I would strongly look at IMR 4759 to get down to 250-3000 performance. I would be happy to discuss specific loading with you on PM. roger

BOY--I've spent some time thumbing through manuals and most everyone starts with powder like 4350 and goes towards even slower. There is no reason that faster powder won't work in the 257 mag case but there sure isn't much data out there. I could use quickload to forecast some H4895 loads but I think you might be well off to try and e-mail hodgdon and see if they have any test data with faster powders. Since they now are in charge of their data, IMR and winchester data they should be the experts.

http://stevespages.com/257_10_100.html

I don't personally know of any proven cases of "detonation" from loading too light, but I have seen double charges and squibs. If you MUST load below the minimum I would suggest that you use a powder designed for light recoil like the cowboy action shooters, trailboss for example, or switch to a smaller caliber weapon--The silliness of most people's "need" for magnum cartridges tempts one to expound at length about shot placement and practice and on and on, but being that I am not the type of person to go on about such things when no good purpose is served I will refrain from it at this time.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
...I have read in a number of forums that reducing slow burning powder charge volume may result in a "second detonation" and I also know that there is disagreement on this subject. ...

Hey Red, It has been refered to over the years as a Secondary Explosion Effect, Detonation, Pressure Excursion, and the good old Ka-Boom.

Fortunately not many people have experienced it and it is even less common today than it was back 40-60 years ago when we had significantly fewer Powders to choose from. All the Load Manuals have excellent Warnings on the subject which most people normally follow whether they understand the phenomenon or not.

Most all the Load Manuals and the Powder Manufacturers list specific Powders for Down-Loading. I just looked in a Speer Manual and they list 257WbyMag Down-Loads using SR-4759(just Whammed in the wrong Powder Number which is why I don't post specific Loads, but it is correct now).

As has been said, RL-22 is way too Slow to use for Down-Loads. If you want them, it would be well worth your money to invest in a couple of Manuals. Speer is a good one, so is Lyman. But the Powder Manufacturers have the info available at their sites too.

Best of luck to you.

I can explain this phenom real well . As I was next to a fellow on the firing line who used real reduced

loads . A novice at reloading and didn't wish to appear foolish by asking questions . He asked a lot

of questions when it was all over and paid a fair sum of money for the damages . I fortunately had a

post between he and I !.

Picture a case with half the recommended powder in it ( Visual illustration purposes only ) .

Now picture same case in a normal firing chamber position . Powder is no longer packed or stacked

against the primer . Primers purpose is to burn through powder NOT OVER IT .

When the primer flashes over the top of a charge BAD things happen and HAPPEN FAST , when they're

not supposed to . More air in the case allows for more gas volume expansion and rapidly BLOWS UP !.

It Exceeds pressure specs and instead of burning and building pressure evenly

, it just spikes or explodes . making a miniature pipe bomb out of the action it was detonated in !.

Does it happen every time ? NO ! Is it worth the risk ? NO !!!.

There is some data out there but be careful with slow burning powders and some of the odd ball brands.
I was a little cautious with AA2495 and it blew 2 primers in M91 Mauser. INCREASING the load 2 grains and removing the cosmoline out of the bolt solved the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by amamnn:
I don't personally know of any proven cases of "detonation" from loading too light,

P.O. Ackley's handbook for shooters & reloaders
Chapter six goes into detail on what it is, how they discovered the phenomenon, Others that knew about it, what they did to correct the problem.



I will say though that the general population of reloaders have developed a good respect for the load manuals. Granted their still is the occasional knuckelhead that just willy nilly picks a load and say "ah that ain't enough I just go a bit more"
Just because it's not in the manual doesn't mean you can't do it. But any variance from the manual should be done with extreme caution and a lot of home work to back up your reasoning.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by amamnn:
But any variance from the manual should be done with extreme caution and a lot of home work to back up your reasoning.

X 2roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by amamnn:
But any variance from the manual should be done with extreme caution and a lot of home work to back up your reasoning.

X 2roger

+3

quote:

... the occasional knuckelhead that just willy nilly picks a load and say "ah that ain't enough I just go a bit more" ...

Oooh Boy! I know some folks who do that!

" I'm going to load it up HOT! " .... ooooh boy!

Well I mean you could be playing with your life or someone else's. It just amazes me how little respect some people have for things that can kill them.
Ignorance is blissfully deadly!!!!!!!!!

No one has ever been able to demonstrate detonation in handloads, to my knowledge. The books say many have tried and tried.
[But lots of guys get drunk, blow up their gun and claim detonation.]

No one has ever captured an alien space craft, to my knowledge. Many have tried. [But lots of guys get drunk, see flashing lights, and claim it was a UFO.]

Ah... Speer Inc., The Ordnance dept., DuPont Co. Cascade Cartridge Inc (CCI) All claim they have experienced this phenomenon

Can you direct me to those publications?

I hope it wasn't dry labbed, like the start velocities in Speer 12, 13, and 14.

For any reduced load data, not using the traditional faster powders, like mentinoned by Roger above.. ( SR 4759, Blue Dot, RL 7, IMR and H 4198)....

I have found by using mid range powders, like RL 15, IMR 4064, IMR 4895, IMR 3031 for example....and taking load data from the cartridge that might be the next size down and using their max load data with any of those powders, you can safely start working down loads that should meet what you are looking for...

eg: with the 257 Weatherby, use 25/06 data .. start at the Max loads for 25/06 and actually slowly work DOWN....

If you are looking at a 7mm WBY and want to reduce load, look at data with those mid range powders for the 7 Rem Mag or either of the 7mm Short Mags...

Reduced loads for off season, allows a lot more range time, a lot more comfortable to shoot and a lot less wear and tear on the barrel, than full power loads...

they have to be popular for Rem to come out with their Managed Recoil Loads, and followed by Federal... while charging higher prices for the ammo...

after disassembling them in various calibers, I found that they were using IMR 4198 or a powder with pretty much the same burn rate... as duplicting with 4198, I was getting pretty much the same MV as Rem's Managed Recoil loads...
for what info that may be worth.....

I don't see the logic for the 257 WBY... but if you download it, then I see a lot of flexibility that it can give an owner...giving coverage for everything from 250 Savage and 25/35 performance.. yet you can hotrod it back up to fully 257 WBY standards if you need it...

In that light, thar would make the 257 WBY the most flexible 25 caliber chambering out there...AND hence the best choice for a 25 bore handloader...

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
Can you direct me to those publications?

I hope it wasn't dry labbed, like the start velocities in Speer 12, 13, and 14.

As stated above P.O. Ackley handbook for the shooter and reloader. He not only sights the company that claimed experience but also names the people involved.
Don't know about dry labbed But He goes into detail on various ways this phenomenon happens.
Small loads of slow burning powder with primers that did not ignite the charge all at once. Or a very hot primer hitting an extruded powder and shattering it into smaller pieces that speeds up the burning rate to the point of creating a tremendous pressure wave.
TB #100 from CCI
Also I can name one other publication.
Naval Ordnance 1959 edition section 357 "Wave pressure" describes it very well.
But all state that it is not 100% reproducible. There are variables that they still can't reproduce to recreate this reliably.
kerry

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
eg: with the 257 Weatherby, use 25/06 data .. start at the Max loads for 25/06 and actually slowly work DOWN.....

John, did you really mean DOWN?

The reason I ask is that in the 25-06 a max. load of h-4895 behind a 100grain bullet yields a velocity less than can be achieved in the .257 Roberts at a lower pressure.

Putting that load in the much larger capacity Weatherby case would likely produce a velocity lower than can be reasonably achieved in the 250-3000. Working down from there reduces the velocity lower than originally intended performance level.

Using the mid range powders as you suggested may well lead to a reasonable answer, but starting at max. 25-06 loads and measuring the obtained velocity and than determining going UP or DOWN seems the logical way to go for what he's trying to achieve. roger

It really all depends on how much velocity you wish to have.

We have used pistol powders, like UNIQUE, GREEN DOT, BLUE DOT etc in cases ranging from the 222 Remingtom all the way to the 577 T.Rex.

My favorite powder for this is UNIQUE, but all others work fine..

Whatever you do DO NOT reduce very slow powder charges to get lower velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
No one has ever been able to demonstrate detonation in handloads, to my knowledge. The books say many have tried and tried.
[But lots of guys get drunk, blow up their gun and claim detonation.]

No one has ever captured an alien space craft, to my knowledge. Many have tried. [But lots of guys get drunk, see flashing lights, and claim it was a UFO.]

I have had something similar to this happen with 2 rounds in a M91 Mauser. If you are interested I can give you the recipe and you can try it out in you own Mausers. I sure you can get it to work with the powder in question.

I have actually witnessd something along the lines of two-stage ignition. This was in a 577/45 Martini-Henry. A powder similar to IMR3031 (MR200) was being used as a substitute for black powder. "Fizz-bang" might best describe the effects. If the "fizz" part of it did not move the bullet to create a bit of combustion space, the "bang" part could well be a detonation! Thing is, it not happen only once but with every cartridge fired! I was actually standing well away, expecting the gun to blow up!

quote:

.... see flashing lights, and claim it was a UFO

Hey, I've seen that! It was a flying saucer with windows all around it and it was rotating and it had flashing lights!. At least that is what it looked like. It was just an airliner flying though sheet cloud with it's nav lights flashing and it's cabin lights on! But if I had been drunk or stoned or something ....

I have guns in ~ 62 cartridges and ~ 40 powders, but I can buy more.

If anyone has a detonation recipe, I am willing to try it and report back... tomorrow if I have the materials in stock.

270 win with 130gr bullet and 30 gr of 4831 load with a large pistol primer to simulate a bad large rifle primer.
25/06 with half loads
Keep in mind what these guys are talking about is a severely reduced load as in much less then starting loads.

Good info and interesting reading. I didn't think I'd generate this much interest when I posted the thread. Thanks to all.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
...If anyone has a detonation recipe, I am willing to try it and report back... tomorrow if I have the materials in stock.

Hey tnekkcc, As luck would have it, "you" might already have some loaded. Aren't you still using some of the ready to Ka-Boom Seafire Blue Dot Loads? 338vt nearly had a Ka-Boom in that thread and I see Seafire is apparently still spreading them as hard as a Revival Preacher. Just a matter of time before someone gets a serious Ka-Boom using them.

The inability to recreate them at will is what makes the Secondary Explosion Effect so dangerous. People may fire hundred of rounds with the exact same Load and then have it happen.

The situation that Doc224/375 described is "one of the ways" it seems to happen. The "Flash Over" changes the Rate of Burn which causes the Peak Pressure to Spike Higher in a much short time period than happens normally.
-----

However, there is the potential of a different Pressure Spike phenomenon occurring, resulting in the same thing, if Red C. reduced the RL-22 below the Minimum Loads. He does not need to go so Low that the Flash Over point is reached.

The Bullet can begin moving and then stop(or nearly stop) as it begins engaging the Lands. Meanwhile back at the Powder, the Case Volume has changed which lowered the Pressure(in microseconds) and reduced the Burn Rate. Then the Pressure begins rising and the Powder is consumed faster than normal because it is now in a heated pressurized container.

And there are a couple of other theories which used to float around 50 years ago.

I know "you" can understand the dynamics of both the events I just described. No need to try and make it happen, just as there is no need to see if you can swallow a Sword and see if it cuts your throat.
-----

One additional comment, at the time I quit supporting the Blue Dot Loads, Seafire was attempting to use Blue Dot as an all encompassing, universal Powder for every cartridge made and attempting to reach Full Velocity Levels. His apparent inability to understand the Internal Ballistic Pressures associated with those Loads is what caused me to disassociate myself with his Loads all together. Since then, the incident by "338vt"(linked above) happened. And Ben jumped in to say it was a Bad Idea.

Best of luck to folks using any Load taken from the net or one not found in a "current" Manual. It is just a matter of time until someone uses a non-factory tested and approved Seafire Blue Dot Load which results in a very serious event.

quote:

Best of luck to folks using any Load taken from the net or one not found in a "current" Manual. It is just a matter of time until someone uses a non-factory tested and approved Seafire Blue Dot Load which results in a very serious event.

When Alliant publishes these Blue Dot loads I'll break out my canister of Blue Dot and try it.....until then I can find no reason to do so!

My Speer #13 load manual lists 100gr reduced load, SR4759 powder, 18 to 22 grains, yielding ~1600 to ~1900 fps in their 24" Weatherby test barrel, using CCI250 mag primer.

I wouldn't trust reducing slow burn RL22.

Just buy a Marlin in 35 Remington for your short range hunting, you don't want to look funny toting that shiny long barreled 257 in the thick stuff. You can even use (gasp) factory loads!

You know, the next gun on my list is a Marlin .357 Mag. I have a S&W .357 mag revolver and I've been thinking it would be great to have one of the Marlins in that caliber. Thanks for reminding me. But, heaven forbid that I'd ever go hunting with factory loads.

About a week before the end of deer season I picked up a 30-06 Semi-auto by doing a brake job for a guy. I bought some factory ammo, sighted it in at 50 yards and killed a 9 point buck at 75 yards with it. 150 grain Remington PSPCL. First deer killed by me with a factory load in more than 30 years. Funny it worked just as well as any load I could have put together. Most of us forget that the vast majority of hunters out there don't reload and the cheapest factory ammo you can buy kills the most deer and elk every year.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
You know, the next gun on my list is a Marlin .357 Mag. ...

Hey Red, Me too. Indiana changed their Hunting Laws a couple of years ago to allow some Revolver Cartridges in rifles for Deer Season. They have pulled a huge amount of those rifles out of the pipeline into Indiana for their Hunters.

Use published loads...meaning the min load of the fastest powder you can find listed.

You made the decision to acquire the .257 Wby Mag -- live with it -- that is the price of your choice of weapons..good or bad. If you want Robert's or 25-06 velocities, you should have bought one.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Barstooler

quote:

Originally posted by Barstooler:
Use published loads...meaning the min load of the fastest powder you can find listed.

You made the decision to acquire the .257 Wby Mag -- live with it -- that is the price of your choice of weapons..good or bad. If you want Robert's or 25-06 velocities, you should have bought one.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Barstooler

That's a point never mentioned. Why would you want a reduced load in a light recoil rifle anyway??? I see his reasoning in the first post but 90% of the time I want to go faster.
If it a 22 hornet I want 3000 FPS if its a 22-250 I want 4000 FPS 7x57 I want 2900 FPS
It's never a lot more It's always just a little more just enough to tempt you into pushing a load to far.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
How much below the recommended starting charge can one safely go? I am shooting a .257 Wby Mag with 100 grain Sierra GameKings. I am using RL22 powder and Winchester mag primers. I have some excellent grouping full power loads, but was wondering about trying to produce some lighter charge loads for use in areas where I wouldn't be shooting over 100 yds. Say, a load that would produce something on the order of .250 Savage or .257 Roberts ballistics. I have read in a number of forums that reducing slow burning powder charge volume may result in a "second detonation" and I also know that there is disagreement on this subject.Lee's manual lists a starting charge of 69 grains (they also list a max charge of 69 grains?). Alliant powder's suggested starting charge is 61 grains. How much below 61 grains could I safely go?

When there is only one charge listed normally that is the max. The rule of thumb is to reduce it by 10% to start. If for some reason the load is both max and min, as in some cases when useing H110/W296, you don`t reduce or vary the charge due to the chance of a bullet lodging in your bore.
The books usually have a remark reguarding a charge that must not be reduced. If there isn`t one reduce by 10% to start.
The danger of senondary detonation is from what I`ve been told a event that occures with slow powders and light for caliber bullets in most cases. It is a valid concern, but as long as you follow the recommendation of you manual or other reputable source you`ll be fine.
The biggest danger IMO is a dud that will stick a bullet in your barrel or hangfire.

quote:

Originally posted by Barstooler:

You made the decision to acquire the .257 Wby Mag -- live with it -- that is the price of your choice of weapons..good or bad. If you want Robert's or 25-06 velocities, you should have bought one.

That is the Barstoolers opinion and he is certainly entitled to it.

Hand loading gives you the ability to explore and learn. It further gives us a reasonable opportunity to do things as we choose and to shed the blinders that obstructionests would impose.
Using reduced loads for the 257 Weatherby can be safely accomplished and can be fun. If you think you'll like and enjoy it , do it. roger

There might be some logic in having two rifles, especially for a non-reloader. But for a reloader, the one rifle two loads concept makes a heap more sense! And one simply cannot achieve 257 Wby Mag performance out of a 257 Roberts while one can do the reverse. Make sense?

quote:

Hand loading gives you the ability to explore and learn. It further gives us a reasonable opportunity to do things as we choose ...

Most of us try to get top performance out of what we have, Red C. is one up - he can choose the performance he wants without pushing any bounderies. Well, OK. many of us!

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Barstooler:

You made the decision to acquire the .257 Wby Mag -- live with it -- that is the price of your choice of weapons..good or bad. If you want Robert's or 25-06 velocities, you should have bought one.

That is the Barstoolers opinion and he is certainly entitled to it.

Hand loading gives you the ability to explore and learn. It further gives us a reasonable opportunity to do things as we choose and to shed the blinders that obstructionests would impose.
Using reduced loads for the 257 Weatherby can be safely accomplished and can be fun. If you think you'll like and enjoy it , do it. roger

I "explore" limits between published min/max loads. That is the beauty of handloading. You go outside (below) that and blow your head off "learning" because of a 1:10,000 chance of a pressure excursion with a slow burning powder, then don't blame anyone but yourself. That's my only point.

I have been around real ordnance for over 21 years, taught ballistics at Weapons Schools, and have brought airplanes back with self induced holes in them because the 1:10,000 chance that day had that unique explosive/frag pattern at the moment of detonation that for some reason exceed the odds or was the 1:10,001th occurence. It just is not worth the ass pain. The odds are the odds and some day they will catch up with you.

Barstooler

quote:

Originally posted by Barstooler:
Use published loads...meaning the min load of the fastest powder you can find listed.

You made the decision to acquire the .257 Wby Mag -- live with it -- that is the price of your choice of weapons..good or bad. If you want Robert's or 25-06 velocities, you should have bought one.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Barstooler

I am not dissatisfied with my .257 Wby Mag and I have many full velocity .257 Wby Mag loads. What I did want to do is tap into some of its diversity. I own a .243 Win. and thought of ways of filling the ballistics gap between it and the .257 Wby Mag. I thought that was one of the benefits of reloading your own ammo. Since I can't increase the max velocities of the .243, I thought I'd try reducing the velocities of the .257 Wby. I'll still be shooting the .257 Wby at or near some of its max velocities, but I also thought of trying to get some .25-06 and 250 Savage ballistics out of it as well.