I recently removed the expander ball from my RCBS and LEE FL dies that I have set to P-FLR. I had read that this should greatly decrease or even eliminate runout.

I also noticed that my Lee case trimmers would not seat after I sized the cases. I decided to trim first and then resize and taking measurements found that the cases come out 0.005" longer than when done in reverse but all were the same length and were below the max. cartridge length anyway.

I have not had a chance to fire them for accuracy but I am curious to see if removing the expander ball and trimming first will improve it.

I did find some initial greater resistance to seating with the flat base Sierra Pro-Hunter and less so with the boat-tailed Game-Getters in .243 and 7mm. RM but once they reached about the bottom of the neck they went in easier.

I was concerned about "crushing" the case imperceptably but the measurements stayed the same for length. I do not have a concentricity gauge to check run-out. I do use a Lee FCD afterwards.

As an aside, I got this idea from reading about it here and thought I would try it. I have a lee Neck Collet Sizing die for the 7mm. Mag. I will use it for subsequent reloadings of the same case but thought I would try the no-expander ball technigue for new cases and P-FLR of multiple fired cases.

I know some of you have experience with this since I got the idea from this site. Would love to have you expound a little about your results.

Thanks, Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by aerostarp:
I recently removed the expander ball from my RCBS and LEE FL dies that I have set to P-FLR. I had read that this should greatly decrease or even eliminate runout.

I also noticed that my Lee case trimmers would not seat after I sized the cases. I decided to trim first and then resize and taking measurements found that the cases come out 0.005" longer than when done in reverse but all were the same length and were below the max. cartridge length anyway.

I have not had a chance to fire them for accuracy but I am curious to see if removing the expander ball and trimming first will improve it.

I did find some initial greater resistance to seating with the flat base Sierra Pro-Hunter and less so with the boat-tailed Game-Getters in .243 and 7mm. RM but once they reached about the bottom of the neck they went in easier.

I was concerned about "crushing" the case imperceptably but the measurements stayed the same for length. I do not have a concentricity gauge to check run-out. I do use a Lee FCD afterwards.

As an aside, I got this idea from reading about it here and thought I would try it. I have a lee Neck Collet Sizing die for the 7mm. Mag. I will use it for subsequent reloadings of the same case but thought I would try the no-expander ball technigue for new cases and P-FLR of multiple fired cases.

I know some of you have experience with this since I got the idea from this site. Would love to have you expound a little about your results.

Thanks, Wayne

Wayne:

A standard FL die over-sizes the neck and then the expander ball opens it up to the correct size. That's why you couldn't get your trimmer guide rod into the neck, and you won't be able to seat bullets until you run an expander into the case and open the neck up a bit.

Although the expander ball is the usual culprit when you have runout problems, simply removing it is not a workable option.

The collet die is a great tool, but it is strictly a neck sizer and you will still need to resize the body after a few firings.
you will need to make some provision for bumping the shoulder back every few filings. I use a Redding body die.

You probably know by now from the Nest posting but just for the benefit of others reading this:

Your FL die will size the neck pretty small and without the expander it will be harder to seat the bullets. For example a 300 win mag FL die that I have sizes the brass neck to an outside diameter of .329". If my brass was an average of .014" (some are thinner and some thicker) then the brass plus the bullet would add up to .308"+.014"+.014"=.336" which would mean you would have .007" bullet grip which is excessive.

If you neck turn your necks to .012" before then the brass plus the bullet would add up to .308"+.012"+.012"=.332" which would mean you would have a bullet grip of .003". Just about perfect.

Also when you size the outside of the neck you move all the neck thickness variances to the inside where it will effect bullet grip and release although most if not all the variances will be pushed back to the outside by the bullet. Brass usually has a thick side and a thin side so it stands to reason that the force of the bullet pushing the inconsistancies would tend to cant the bullet and lead to runout.

So IMO for best results this method will get the best results in conjunction with outside neck turning.

Removing the expander ball will increase runout. This is because when the bullet is seated, the brass gets stressed beyond it's elastic limit resulting in an uneven 'stretching'. With the expander, the neck is stretched to a sized that holds the bullet under elastic stress. Because the expander is being pulled through the neck from the inside out, it tends to stay straighter.

quote:

Also when you size the outside of the neck you move all the neck thickness variances to the inside where it will effect bullet grip and release although most if not all the variances will be pushed back to the outside by the bullet. Brass usually has a thick side and a thin side so it stands to reason that the force of the bullet pushing the inconsistancies would tend to cant the bullet and lead to runout.

For a while now, I have been thinking of a sizer that employs a firmly guided expander rod that is pused into the case mouth with the case held firmly in a guide die. Mmmmm ...... time to try it.

303 Guy, if you get a setup like that working, I would be real interested in acquiring some.

Good Luck--Don

Some experiences I've had:

1. It's really hard to beat the lee collet die and redding body die in combination.

2. If you want to open up a piece of brass that's been sized without an expander ball it's real hard to beat the lyman M die....it will do it and leave concentricity totally intact. Also a nice expander like the hornady eliptical will do the same...I have a 7mm and 30 cal hornady neck die in my box but only use them for the expander...I don't neck size with them.

3. I played with excessive bullet grip in a 7 wsm on a buddy's gun. The grip was .007" which was hard to seat bullets and the ammo all tunred out very crooked...most over .006" runnout. The result on the range was not a group over 1" and that included 4 recipes...it shocked me as I thought this guy would think I was the worst reloader in the world...but the gun liked it.

4. NOt all guns are bothered by concentricity....here is a copy of a posting from the long range forum....here is some crooked ammo shooting just wonderful...

"I would not worry about it, i'll bet you will still get good accuracy. When i necked down my 375 rum brass to 338 edge i was getting about 20 thousands runout with 338 rum neck sizing die. The accuracy with that much runout was great. My first group after load development was 3/4 inch at 325 yards. All 100 cases shot shot very good. After the first firing i get very little runout,but in all honesty they do not shoot any better than on mt first firing with a lot of runout. I think a good chamber will make up for a lot of runout. This probably won't be the normal for all rifles, but in my 338 edge runout does not seem to matter"

quote:

A standard FL die over-sizes the neck and then the expander ball opens it up to the correct size. That's why you couldn't get your trimmer guide rod into the neck,

The trimmer pilot should be turned down. I find most to be too large.

quote:

and you won't be able to seat bullets until you run an expander into the case and open the neck up a bit.

Not true. I never use an expander, and have never had that problem. I reload primarily for somewhat larger bore rifles, and generally look for a resized neck ID .010" under bullet diameter. Never had a problem seating a bullet.

quote:

Removing the expander ball will increase runout. This is because when the bullet is seated, the brass gets stressed beyond it's elastic limit resulting in an uneven 'stretching'. With the expander, the neck is stretched to a sized that holds the bullet under elastic stress. Because the expander is being pulled through the neck from the inside out, it tends to stay straighter.

I've always found the opposite to be true.

I replaced the expander balls and measured .003" smaller than caliber as was recommended above.

I decided to leave the lock nut loose on the RCBS expander rod and moved it up so that it just touches the inside of the neck while the neck of the case is still in the neck resizing portion of the die. This should hold it straight.

Unfortunately you cannot do this with the Lee die because it has a tightening collet to hold the shank which dictates where the expander portion of the rod sits. I polished the expander with Mothers Mag Polish and retracted it as much as I could to decrease the fulcrum arm a little. I only need this Lee die for P-FLR after a few reloadings anyway because I will use the Lee Neck Sizing Collet Die most of the time with the 7mm.

I guess this is a reasonable compromise.

This stuff cuts expander ball neck friction by about 90%http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=IMP-D&type=store You already polished the ball this is just icing on the cake.

Sorry about that , The link does'nt work on this forum, I use Imperial dry neck lube it comes in what looks like an old 35mm film container. Its filled with ceramic balls and all you do is dip the neck in and resize. I have a couple of calibers that have very tight necks and this stuff works great.

I have had excellent success by not using the expander, HOWEVER, I did use Froggy's lube to ease with bullet seating. NEVER did I seat a bullet into a dry sized case. That can cause problems.

Not using the expander, and by using the graphite suspended in alcohol (Froggy's lube), I had practically zero runout. The lube was the key. Seating it dry, I could see that causing runout, especially since my dies were squeezing the necks very small.

Then, I wised up and had all the sizers honed to squeeze OD of neck to .002 less than loaded case. Now, I can use the expander which opens it up only .001 larger once it is sized, and still just about zero runout practically 100% of the time.

Even now, when neck is .002 less than loaded round, I don't have to use expander and bullets seat just fine.

Neck turning is always a good idea also.

The real problem is that the neck sizing portion of the F/L die is greatly variable. Most are too tight and the expanders are usually more uniform, but sill variable between makers. Dragging that expander out of a too tightly sized neck RUINS to possibility of minimun runout and frequently changes cartridge headspace too. Know the dimension you want to size to and order a Forster die and have them ream it for you, or as has been stated use a body die and a collet neck die. If you don't get that runout down you don't get accuracy.

The thing is that if you have a die that is honed out then the neck thickness of the brass is still not being controlled so there is a possibility that your bullet grip will change.

Say you ordered a die from Forster to give you .002" less than a loaded neck diameter like Doc says. Then you run out of that lot of brass and the next lot from the same manufacturer is .001" thicker on average than the previous lot. Your bullet grip just went to .004" from the previous .002". You are not in control.

Brass varies a lot. Some Nosler and Norma have been close to .012" and some Remington has varied from .014" to .017". I had a box of Nosler 300 win mag lately that varied from .009" to .017" on one case!

You need to outside neck turn to control the bullet grip.

I decap with a universal die and have removed the decapping stem from my sizers for a few years now. I get much more consistant runout numbers (and always lower) then I did when I pulled the expander in and out of my brass. Neck tension is a bit more but bullets start OK, especially BT`s and I never have crushed a neck or had any problems doing it this way.
Try it for 25 -50 rds and if it doesn`t improve runout or you run into trouble due to it go back to useing the expander. It hurts nothing and resizing with the expander in place will bring things back to where you are today.

Hey Doc:
Where can you buy this Froggy's Lube or is it something you make yourself?

Good point Ol' Joe:
The Lee sizing die expander rod is solidly anchored into the die by a collet. I takes 2 wrenches to loosen it and remove. I had been concerned that if this rod was not perfectly straight and centered it would increase run-out.

Doubledown:
That Imperial Neck Sizing Lube sounds something like Froggy's Lube - both are graphite based?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
The thing is that if you have a die that is honed out then the neck thickness of the brass is still not being controlled so there is a possibility that your bullet grip will change.

Say you ordered a die from Forster to give you .002" less than a loaded neck diameter like Doc says. Then you run out of that lot of brass and the next lot from the same manufacturer is .001" thicker on average than the previous lot. Your bullet grip just went to .004" from the previous .002". You are not in control.

Brass varies a lot. Some Nosler and Norma have been close to .012" and some Remington has varied from .014" to .017". I had a box of Nosler 300 win mag lately that varied from .009" to .017" on one case!

You need to outside neck turn to control the bullet grip.

All true, but hasn't affected accuracy in 5 rifles with up to 7 different lots of brass so far. Nonetheless, that is why I am now using the expander again, so inside diameter is same.

Inside of 500 yards, it's unremarkable, at least in my experience.

quote:

Originally posted by aerostarp:
Hey Doc:
Where can you buy this Froggy's Lube or is it something you make yourself?

Here's where I got it.

And here is my 270 Win group after getting die honed, annealing brass, and fine tuning seating depth:

Custom 270 Win 700, 24" Broughton-Richards bbl #3, Rimrock stock, Win brass, Federal 215 Match primer, 51.0 gr. IMR4350, 15 thousandths off lands, 150 Berger VLD wolf load:

100 Yards: 0.137



200 Yards: 0.460




Brass was wt sorted and this batch weighed b/w 190.0 and 190.3 grains. Necks are not turned. All trimmed to same length. Brass was sized in my die but new, unfired. I am getting zero runout on 88 loaded rounds, up to .001 runout on 91, and almost but not quite .002 on 22 rounds.

Doc: I saw that site before that you linked me too but I do not see the Froggy's Lube or how to order it. Any help? thanks, Wayne

I ordered 2 bottles many years ago and at that time the seller stated to me that they may no longer sell the stuff but he wasn't sure and I don't know why.

I've only used one bottle to date and it has lasted roughly 6 years.

I'll have to research it to get you an answer, but the seller stated to me that it is simply "graphite suspended in alcohol." But he didn't give me what type of alcohol or graphite or what ratios.

quote:

NEVER did I seat a bullet into a dry sized case. That can cause problems.

Interesting! I leave the neck lube in place. I find seating consistancy improves and the bullets seem to seat straighter. I have not done a controlled test to check the difference.

I've thought much about this and after talking to some of you and others, believe that you don't need the expander ball when re-sizing.

Here is another thought. Varmint Al states on his site that he has calibers that he loads for that he doesn't even re-size before loading! He says that this rifle has a custom tight necked chamber and all he does is reprime, charge and seat new bullets.

Would that work for factory chambers too?

Knowing that when brass is fired in your chamber it becomes perfectly fitted to your gun, why would or wouldn't this work?

Maybe the neck portion of the chamber will be too sloppy and after the brass has been fired the neck portion of the brass would be to loose to hold a bullet?

Has anyone tried Hornady's One Shot for next lubing?

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I've thought much about this and after talking to some of you and others, believe that you don't need the expander ball when re-sizing.

Here is another thought. Varmint Al states on his site that he has calibers that he loads for that he doesn't even re-size before loading! He says that this rifle has a custom tight necked chamber and all he does is reprime, charge and seat new bullets.

Would that work for factory chambers too?

Knowing that when brass is fired in your chamber it becomes perfectly fitted to your gun, why would or wouldn't this work?

Maybe the neck portion of the chamber will be too sloppy and after the brass has been fired the neck portion of the brass would be to loose to hold a bullet?

No it will not work in a factory chamber. Most factory chambers are either minimum SAAMI spec, maximum SAAMI spec and everything in between depending on the condition of the reamer when it chambers each barrel. If someone doesn't even have to resize his necks, then his chamber is so tight that the neck must not expand at all. Factory chambers expand several thousandths. If you tried the same in a factory rifle, your bullet would fall into the case mouth.

quote:

Originally posted by Abob:
Has anyone tried Hornady's One Shot for next lubing?

I use the Hornady wax stuff. I like it very much.