When will Lyman, RCBS, and all the rest of these companies get smart and provide a FLAT TOP SEATER PLUG with their die sets, instead of trying to match the ovige of every bullet cast since the dawn of time? Every damn one I have leaves a ring around the ogive of EVERY cast bullet I use. Now I have to take a trip to the gunsmith this morning, (and this is an old story), and have him face off my seater plug FLAT, so it will engage on the meplat of the bullet, ANY BULLET!! I really wish these companies would wake up to this. Nobody shoots round nose bullets any more, except in the auto pistol calibers, and many of those shoot some type of SWC. I have even seated soft exposed lead hollow points with FLAT seater plugs with no deformaty what so ever. I called RCBS on this and they told me to send them 3 cast bullets I was using, and they would make me a custom seater plug. Christ, talk about making a moon shot out of something! If they would make ALL revolver caliber seater plugs FLAT, it would make everyones life a lot easier. Another gripe of mine. Someone should STEAL the knurling tool off ALL their lathes so they would HAVE to put wrench flats on ALL their die adjusting nuts. Another thing we must do ourselves. The one that really pisses me off is RCBS with their STUPID knurled de-capping pin collet nut. You have to be Hercules Unchained to get the damn thing loose! Bill T.

Bill,

May I suggest you partake of some feminine companionship?

Don

Instead of going to your gunsmith, just fill the stem with some epoxy. Once it hardens sand it flat.

Martindog

Better yet- get a med check. OR- have one of them there procter-oligists reach in and pluck that ingrown hair in that vast dark crevice.

Martindog has a fair good idea with the epoxy. Or you could fill the stem with molten lead.
Don G may also have a good suggestion, well, it sure couldn't hurt.

------------------
Abe

If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any differently!

Maybe the easiest way is to grab a wad of tissue (unused) and cram it into the seating die. Doesn't hurt to let a LITTLE lube or wax soak into it, but then hurry to run a loaded round up into the die so the tissue is compressed firmly. This conforms the tissue to the shape of the bullet and usually ends the problem. Done this for years. End of aggravation.

Now, turn you face to the left and cough. That didn't hurt did it?.............

While some have suggested therapies ranging from female attention to proctological exam, (the former decidedly more pleasant ) I think Bill has a point. The die makers do some pretty silly things at times.

Regarding adjustment of the full-length sizer die for bottleneck cartridges, RCBS used to, on their instruction sheet, tell you to rasie the ram all the way (shellholder in place) and screw the sizer die down until it contacts the ram. Period. No mention of the headspace needs of your particular rifle.

I have 2, .308 rounds I saved from a range session where I squeezed the trigger and got "snick" instead of "boom". A friend lent me his L.E.Wilson case gauge and I immediately saw that the shoulder had been set back too far by the sizer die, allowing enough slop in chamber fit to cushion the firing pin blow. Good thing it happened at the range and not when a critter was in the crosshairs.

I learned a lot from that experience. I get and use a Wilson case gauge for every bottleneck round I reload and for which they are available. If not available, I use a nickel as a spacer and screw the sizer die down until it hits the nickel sitting atop the shellholder (ram at top dead center, so to speak). I size a case with the die at this level and check it for chamber fit and adjust as necessary. Never had another mis-sized case or dud.

The lack of wrench flats is a real pain. I love Redding dies but mutter dark things about knurled adjustments.

Since "they" sell shellholder assortments, why not sell bullet seater plug assortments? You know, a handgun assortment would have RN & wadcutter plugs in 9mm/.38/.357, 10mm/40, .41, .44, and .45 calibers. Sure would save time & trouble.

Having said all that, I'll be the first to say we get great quality from good die makers at very reasonable prices and it's a blessing.

[This message has been edited by BigIron (edited 12-23-2001).]

I have to second the comment made about quality for price. When I make a set of threaded dies including the heat treating of the sizer I am doing well to finish up in 6 hours. The only justification for spending this time is to get dimensions that the major makers may not offer. Otherwise even a special order set at 120.00 is really quite a bargain. Standard dies at 25 bucks are darn cheap! Regards, Bill

You can't compare time spent on a custom set of dies to what RCBS and the others spend on mass produced dies. Once a CNC Lathe with a bar feeder is set up to produce a given caliber, a die can be produced to very close tolerances in a couple of minutes. Add the cost of heat treatment, some polishing, and a plastic box that sets them back .50 cents or so, and you can see why Fred Huntington didn't have to eat beans and weenies after he sold RCBS. Thats why certain "groups" of dies will cost more than others. They all cost the same to make, they just make a shorter run in these calibers so the cost per die is greater due to set up time, ect. I just wish they would offer a seater plug "set" with all configurations in all calibers. It sure would make things a lot easier. Bill T.

If a flat seater plug is used, how is the bullet nose held centered so that the bullet seats concentrically in the case?

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

The bullet is "lined up" by the I.D. of the seater die itself, not the downward pressure of the seater plug. A flat seater plug contacting a cast bullet with a large meplat will give a nice square seat. I've loaded thousands of rounds this way, and have found the results to be completly satisfactory. Just look at the small area a .30 caliber seater plug engages on a spitzer type bullet. You can run the case up into the die with the bullet a 10 degree angle and it won't matter, the die will straighten it out before it comes into contact with the tiny seater plug. Bill T.

This does not apply to bottle neck case reloading. I went to the workshop and trimmed the seater plug on a 308 die set flat in a lathe and loaded 25 rounds. No matter what I tried, they all had runout that was a joke. I seated some flat nosed solids and they were also off by a wider margin than with a recessed seater and the FN bullets are cnc turned so they are absolutely concentric. With cast bullets, surely any small anomaly on the nose of the bullet will cause it to seat at an angle. Due to the short bullet it may not be visible but it must be there?

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Might it be practical to modify a seater plug with some epoxy putty? I suppose the simplest way would be to put a small pea sized ball in the recess, then run the die down on an already loaded case until the epoxy set up. To do a different bullet profile just chip it out.

If I remember, you can buy lock rings from Lee that are hexagonal and not knurled. Yup, just checked their website, 3 for 4 dollars.

http://leeprecision.com/catalog/browse.cgi?1009180131.4467=dies-p1.html

If this "crooked seating" is such an issue, than tell me how target wadcutters are seated? My S&W Model 52 is one of the most accurate pistols that I own, and ALL it shoots are wadcutters, handloaded, and seated with a FLAT seating stem. I think all this concern about runout is all for nothing. At least from an accuracy standpoint. Bill T.

Would target wadcutters not engage the rifling when the round is chambered thereby reducing the effect of runout? The problem as I see it would be with a lot of runout and the bullet seated off the rifling. I will go shoot the ones I loaded with the flat seater and see how they group compared to the regular loaded ones for that rifle.

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Gerard: Target wadcutters are seated flush with the case mouth, so there is no way they can engage the rifling. How much off center can a round possibly be seated? As I mentioned, the die itself takes care of most all the "lineup". Once the bullet starts into the case, where else can it go? If you accomplish seating the bullet without shaving any lead, the job has been completed. REMEMBER, I'm talking about cast handgun bullets here, NOT jacketed rifle, although much the same applies. Bill T.

I was getting runout with a 7mm bullet that was easily noticable by just rolling the cartridge across a flat surface, I took my seating die apart and found that the bullet was only contacting the top of the plunger and could still be moved from side to side when fully in the plunger, I put a plunger in the 7mm seating die from a .25 caliber die that cupped the sides of the bullet and not just pushed down from the top, that solved my runout problem. This was one instance with RCBS dies but may be worthy of this discussion.

I'm sure everyone new I was referring to bottleneck cases and spitzer bullets but I forgot to mention it.

Also, HAPPY HOLLIDAYS ALL.

Heavy Varmint: I'm hearing of people having this kind of trouble more with RCBS than with most other brands of dies. I once purchased a set of RCBS dies in .25-06 that would not screw into my press. It turned out the 7/8-14 thread was not cut deep enough. These kind of obivous mistakes should be caught by Q.C. I guess it's a sign of the times. More, more, faster, faster. Never mind about getting it right, just get it DONE! We baby boomers had better learn to put on the brakes. We're doing this to ourselves, trying to be heros at are jobs. Bill T.

My seater plug for an RCBS .444 Marlin is flat... So is the seater plug for my Lee .45-70

Clement