Took apart 6 factory loaded Federal Hi-Energy 30-06 shells. They were loaded with 165 gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, and claimed speed was 3000 fps. The average for the 6 powder charges was 70.5 grs.

Actual chrony'd speed from a 24" barrel was 2921 fps avg.

Just thought some of you guys would be interested in this.

[ 08-31-2003, 23:18: Message edited by: todbartell ]

Yep, thats what I clocked them at also................70 grains of powder! I'm wondering what type of ball powder they use? Everyone thought 62 grains of Reloader 22 was alot!

62.5 grs RL25 is all I can get in my 25-06.it just wont hold any more.

70 grs behind a 165 in an 06 has to be at least as slow as H-1000 or 7828.how they get it in there is another ??????????????

My understanding is that these rounds CANNOT be duplicated by a reloader, because there's no way for us to get that amount of powder into a case, even if we knew what it was, and could buy some of it.

Since the clocked speed of these loads was only 2921, instead of the advertised 3000, I doubt that there's really any practical advantage to paying the premium price for this ammo. I'd be willing to bet that you could safely get 2900, or very near to it anyway, with handloads using 165 gr. bullets and max loads of one of the 4350 powders from most 30/06 rifles with 22 or 24 inch barrels.

Hornady lists two Light magnum loads for the 7x57 Mauser. One giving 2830 FPS with the 139 gr.SPBT and another giving 2950 FPS wit the 139 SPFB bullet. In a 22" barreled Winchester Model 70, I have reached 2880 FPS with a 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic tip with .375" accuracy. (No, I won't give out the load as it was starting to show a bit of pressure signs. on a day that was about 105 degrees in the shade.) Point being, under cooler tepmerature conditions, you can get fairly close to those "Light Magnum" and "High Energy Loads" But, and I emphasize that but, only in cartridges that are not loaded to their full potential by the factories because of the earlier weak actions these cartridges were originally chambered in.
John Wooters once wrote in a magazine article that he got a 150 gr. 30 caliber bullet to 3100 FPS from a 24" barrelled 30-06 with a 1 in 12" twist. He never did give the load or even the powder type due to potential liability issues. (damned lawyers anyway) which is why I won't pass on my data.
Looking at those pictures though, I'm kind of wondering if that propellant might not be Winchester's discontinued WMR???? I believe H-450, also discontinued was the same powder, but from a different lot. I liked that powder in my .300 Win. mag., and when a buddy who works in a gun store told me big "W" had dropped it, I bought all they had and scrounges all over hell getting as much as I could. I found out it makes my Ruger #1 in .270 talk as well. (No, it was not the powder I used in the 7x57, although I've thought about trying it.)
What does piss me off is, they can give three levels of loads for the 45-70, but no higher pressure data for cartridges like the 7x57, .257 Robt., 30-06, and .35 Whelen. Sounds like BS to me.
Paul B.

Man that is wild!

Paul B., not only can you get "close to" those loads, but generally with better accuracy too, as you have discovered!

Tod
Can you fit the whole 70.5grs back into the case and seat a bullet into it?

Yeah, I can break 2900 fps with 62.5gr of RL 22.
That's a 24" bbl, and definitely max for my comfort, but still within my comfort.
A long drop tube does amazing things (still don't understand how.)

I took a look at quickload to see what might be a close idea to the above. I found quickload thought that 70 grains of ramshot magnum (a ball powder) would give 113% fill--quickload forcasted 58,000psi and 2953 velocity out of a 24" barrel.

Pretty darn close to the specs you found!!!!!!!!!

Must be a powder very close to ramshot??

Kraky, I think your on to something! & I think I`ll do some experimenting! I like Ramshot (Rifle) powders! Ed,

Some years ago Rick Jamison recommended a load that he claimed to be using with miraculous results for the 444. As I was reloading for the 444 at that time I decided to try these miracle loads. Now I do not remember which powder it was nor how much,but what I do remember is the powder spilling out all over the table when I lifted off the funnel. There was at least a gr and a half on the table besides the full case. I have had very little use for that author since that time and can't help wondering if anyone has destroyed a firearm because of his loading recommendations. derf

todd;
Interesting post! Makes me want to disassemble some of the High Velocity ammo that I have laying around before I started reloading. It does give one an idea of working up a load in steps to see what results one can get. ( Of course for all the non Lawyer types, that is why I reload, to see what the rifle will do both at high and low velocity).

From another post I read on here one night about 66 grains or so or RL 19 in a 338/06 case. I filled the case and then poured it out and measured it, and had a little less. I pour most of it back into the case and then using a decapping pin that was out of the die, packed it down in the case a little more and then filled it with more powder.

This Just Filled Me With Curiosity:

Just went out to the Reload bench and used some H 414 powder. FOR THE UNKNOWING DON'T LOAD THIS AND TRY AND SHOOT THIS LOAD!

The powder in Todd's picture looked like Flake powder like W 748, W 760 and H 414. Grabbed some H 414 and tried dropping that much into a Federal 30/06 case. Managed to actually get 71.5 grains in it, and still had a hair left to be able to seat a bullet. However the charge would definitely be compressed.

Also tried a Winchester case and was able to get 72.5 grains of H 414 in the case and still had a little left between there and the case rim without overflowing ( as long as I held the case straight up.)

I accomplished both with the use of a DROP TUBE in a Lee Powder Funnel Set ( about $5.00 or less). Without the drop tube, I could only get 69.5 grains in both cases and they were right at overflowing if you looked at them cross eyed.

I am sure the powder is the WXR ( or whatever their slow one is) or one not commercially available to us peons.

Interesting post tho Todd!!!

QUICK DISCLAIMER---BY NO MEANS DID i MEAN TO RECOMEND SOMEONE GO OUT AND fill a case with Ramshot---use Ramshot data--do not use my information!! Don Kraky

Don, if your second post is aimed at my post, I take my compliment back! Give me a break! I didnot say safe procedure will be omitted from my experimenting! I didn`t mind derfs post, figured he was just 10-4ing! To me Your second post cancelled out the respect you earned with your first post !!!! Ed,

Hey ELB,
I think Kraky was just covering his butt. We'd all like to assume handloaders start low and work up, but you never know. Take a chill pill, and thank Kraky for even running a hypothetical load through QuickLoad.

I've been useing RL22 in my 06 loads and have a hard time keeping the bullet from backing out after seating ontop of 62gns. I ended up around 60.5 and 61 gns for the best accuracy. I've wondered about compressing with the case supported in a die, then adding more powder so you could seat the bullet and have it stay in place?

This is my first post on this forum so don't get after me for posting something that you all may already know.........i compress black powder charges occasionally that i've dropped with a drop tube of approx 24". i use a die that was specifically made for the purpose...but couldn't you use a regular die with something like a 30 cal seating stem that is ground off flat for the purpose of compressing the powder.....dick

I found it was easy to get that kind of vel out of my 06. I bought a 300 win mag. If you feel the need to to push them faster just buy a bigger shell. A 30 378 or such.

For several years I have been shooting 58.5 gr of 4350 behind a 165 gr bullet.
It delivers 2900 fps, and is accurate. So the load can be duplicated.
Good luck!
p.s. this load is from the NRA

John Y
I almost included that bit of trivia in my origional post, but had trouble making it flow into my statement.

Too hot of a load for me! I'll stick to 72.0gr of H4350 behind a 165gr Nosler BT in my .300 win mag