I have asked this question on HA a few days ago; wondering if there's any input from here.

In resizing 338 WM to 416 Taylor, I end up with a bump just ahead of the new shoulder, which I think is from the old 338 shoulder. Is this normal? Should I shoot them? Are my dies improperly adjusted?

Thanks,
Todd

Todd,

I have been using .338 brass for my .416T as well.

After running the .338 brass into my .416T RCBS full length resizing die, I end up with one shallow shoulder, where the original .338 shoulder was (ie. there is no new shoulder, that gets formed during firing -- necking down .458 brass will give you a new shoulder). You can also see that the neck is resized (at the top of the stroke) to a point just above the shoulder, but there is no second bump or bulge.

During fire forming, the shoulder is blown forward about .250 (guessing) and becomes sharper. (During fireforming the cartridge headspaces off the belt, and does not require a "bulge" to headspace on.)

Anyway, that is my experience. I am perplexed about what might be causing your troubles. If the expander ball was oversize, that could account for the second bulge, but your bullets would be loose. If your brass was over length, it could be getting squished at the top of the stroke, but .338 brass should come out short, not long.

Just for kicks, I would measure the diameter of the expander ball. Maybe also try backing the die off a 1/2 turn, and make sure that you are lubing the inside of the necks sufficiently, and try it again. At this stage you don't need to have the die right down for full length sizing. You just need to open up the neck to accept the larger bullet. After fireforming you can set the die for full length or neck sizing. Backing the die off would eliminate the possibility (albeit unlikely) that the brass is hitting the end of the die.

Hopefully someone else here has had exactly this happen before and can give you a definative answer.

If the cases you have already reloaded will chamber in your rifle, and the bullets are held with sufficient tension, and the brass is 2.500" or shorter, you should be able to shoot them without problem. As I mentioned above, this cartridge will headspace off the belt during fireforming.

Please let us know what you come up with.

Canuck

[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 10-10-2001).]

Its pretty normal, you can run them over a 9.3, 375 then 416 and get away from the bump...or you can fire form them with a bullet or Bulleye, klennex, cornmeal wax combo...or you can get an expander from RCBS..all work.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Todd,

I formed a few pieces of 338WM brass in my RCBS dies too. I just went and looked, and see the same thing your describing.

Like Ray says, it's no problem.

BTW, it happens with nickel-plated brass too. I've tried to resize 7mmRM brass in one stage, but the necks split. That was just an experiment though.

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!

Brian and/or Ray,

I am just getting to know my .416 Taylor as well. Could you elaborate on how the second "bump" would be "normally" created in the circumstance Todd described?

I have only used the RCBS full length sizing die for this, but I can't see how you are getting a second shoulder with this set-up. The expander in the resizing die stretches the brass out to .416 (a little less actually) for the entire length of the neck (ie. it passes right through). Then the neck gets sized back down a bit in the top of the die, but not enough to create a bulge. When the case is extracted from the die, it again passes over the expander, which gives it the appropriate dimension for seating a .416 bullet.

The result for me has been one shoulder, which is remaining from the original .338 shoulder.

I get the 'second shoulder' when forming 6.5 Gibbs brass from .270 Win, but I can't see how it occurs in this example of necking up, at least not with the components I'm using.

What am I missing? Am I over analysing?

Canuck

PS: Brian, I tried necking up a couple pieces of .308 Norma brass for just for kicks as well. It seems to work OK, but I think the necks are a little thin.

[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 10-11-2001).]

I'll just throw this one in for thought. You can always neck 458 Win down in one pass to 416. I have used 458 Win to make my 375 Taylor cases w/o a problem. The neck 338 up to 375 takes one pass over a 358 expander and then once again to 375. I usually experience 15% case loss. It's worse with nickel plated.

Now here a question for you all - where can I get empty nickel plated 458 Win brass? TIA

Canuck,
the little bulge is caused by the oversized 416 pushing down on the .338 neck, the brass bulges a bit before the tapered expander button gets through it, It is even worse without the tapered expander button...The first shot will iron everything out...In some instances a shoulder inside will form and that needs to be inside neck reamed...this is seldom if ever the case with the 338 being necked up, it is mostly a necking down syndrome....

the best way is to open them a little at a time with lots of juice on the inside of the neck go 366 to 375 to 416 to 423 to 458 and back down to whatever...or just order a tapered .338 to 416 die and be done with it. Last one I bought was $14.00..then again 20 grs. of bullseye or a bit more and a little klenex or wad, then fill with corn meal and top it off with a gob of wax and shoot it. the corn meal will really clean that barrel while your at it...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Thanks for all the replies -- that's why I love this board.

FWIW, I do have 458 WM cases, but since the original item is in short supply (so it seems), decided to keep them the way they are and employ 338 brass that I have no other use for. Any case loss I experience is less than the loss of just giving them all away!

The rifle isn't chambered yet -- when it is, I will post to let you know what works out.

Here's one other thought -- resized 338 brass ends up a bit short -- could 300 brass be used, to get a longer final product? I know, the necks might get thin, but then the 425 Express is really the .425/.300 Win Mag, isn't it? I might try it, if I can scrounge a few at the range; maybe using stepwise expansion as Ray suggested.

Best,
Todd

Thanks Ray. I looked at the expander in my die last night and it has a pretty long taper to it. I also I apply a liberal amount of case lube when necking up. Could be why I haven't experienced the secondary bulge.

I might try the other method too. I use 11gr of Unique and cream of wheat, topped off with a little rolled toilet paper, for fireforming my 6.5 Gibbs and it works great. Might have to try corn meal, I do have a whack of it.

Todd, I haven't tried it (.300WM to .416) and I don't have any of my reloading stuff with me, but I think the shoulder is to far forward on the .300WM for this to work well (ie. it might get bumped too hard, which could cause other problems like bulges in the case body, stuck cases etc.). I'd make a few measurements before trying it. Someone here may have already. (This really is the best place on the net!!).

Necking .308 Norma brass did end up in really thin necks, I am sure the same would happen here. This would undoubtedly result in short case life (overworking the necks, resulting in premature splitting).

The short .338 brass hasn't been a problem for me. If you look on the Big Bore forum you can see I have been getting some killer velocities regardless.

I am still looking for .458 brass myself. The stuff is in real short supply. Anyone know why?

Canuck

ToddG.

Yes you can use the 300 Win brass and it will have to be worked a little more, so it would be best to order a long tapered expander from RCBS and that will take the case gradually from 308 to 425 or whatever you want....Also a set of case forming dies is nice if you intend to keep the rifle....save you bucks in the long run....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Well it just so happens that I also own a 300 Win Mag, and have run a case through the 416 Taylor dies. First though, I backed the die up a couple threads, so I wouldn't move the shoulder, just expand the neck...

The cartridge on the left is a fireformed 416 Taylor with 458WM brass. The cartridge on the right is the 300 Win Mag brass necked up to .416". Obviously not fireformed, as I don't know anyone with a ".416 Express", if we were to call it that. Actually I think that name is already taken. Both are topped with 400gr Hornady RN's seated to the same C.O.L.

Hope that helps!

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!

Boy Brian, you are on top of things! Pictures and everything!

I looked at it last nite, and I sure don't think I'd try bumping the .300WinM shoulder back with a single pass through a .416 Taylor die. I'm sure there must be a way to do it though. What do you think Brian?

Canuck

I don't think there would be any problem with bumping that shoulder back in the 416 die. Forming and trimming 375 H&H would also probably be easy enough especially with a trim die. If you were to do it in the 416 Taylor fl die you would likely have to remove the decapping rod etc to let the case go past the neck of the die or alternatively trim first (probably best). Regards, Bill.

Here is a pic, showing the transition from .338WM to a fireformed and reloaded .416 Taylor. The cartridge on the left is .338 WM bulk Remington brass. The one in the middle has been run through an RCBS .416Taylor full length sizing die. The one on the right has been fireformed, resized, and a 400gr Swift A-frame has been seated in it.

My apologies for the blurry pic, I am still getting the hang of the digital camera. You can see though, that I did not get a "second bump". The temporary shoulder on the middle cartridge is just the remnant of the .338 shoulder. On the right you can see how far the temporary shoulder was blown forward during fireforming.

Just thought you might be interested. FWIW, Canuck

For what it is worth, I've lately been making my .16 Taylor brass from a bunch of .300 Weatherby brass (Remington brand brass)I was given. I cut back the case to near the juncture of the neck an shoulder on the belt sander, run them through the .416 full length die, trim to length and I'm done. The necks come out the same thickness as necking .458 brass that I am running out of rapidly. With the .300 Weatherby brass, the cases don't change much after the first firing so there's no need to fireform as a separate step. Ed