Ok all yooos guys, here it is!

I just got back from testing my theory about which should come first when developing a load: finding the seating depth or optimal charge weight...................................

I loaded for 2 different rifles. My .243wssm and my .300 Winchester Magnum. I picked a charge weight .5 gr below the max published data for each rifle and loaded 3 cartridges with the bullet on the lands, the next 3 .020" off and so on seating .020" deeper each set of 3 till I had 4-3shot groups of cartridges with seating depths that varied deeper by .020" each time. The last set of shells for each was .060" off the lands. These were bullets I had never tried in the respective rifles.

I fired the cartridges and was able to find a load for each rifle that shot 1/2 MOA at 200 yards in 12 shots. One rifle had the load in 9 shots.

All the loads were safe in my gun verified by the first shot having no pressure signs.

Is this just luck or is seating depth more important than powder charge weight? We went round and round on the last thread I started so I just wanted to do this experiment.

Somebody else please try this and report back with your findings. Woods or anybody else that has a gun with an existing good load, pick a bullet you've never shot and maybe a different powder and just give it a try. I think you'll be amazed.

If a guy can develop a good load in 12 or less shots it will save time and $$$$

just one guys opinion here!!!

assuming the rifle/scope/shooter is in good rig the pecking order for accuracy is as follows with the first listed as more critical
1. right bullet
2. right powder
3. right amount of powder
4. case prep options such as turning necks etc
5. seating depth

Many will disagree and that's what makes a forum!

Fair enough, but it might be awhile. Right now I have all my loads and am doing final long range doping for the Fall hunts. See down here in a couple of months it will be too hot to hunt until Fall and the hunting season. Not really working on load development.

Glad to hear of your success and will keep an eye on this.

One question - are you completely satisfied with the velocity you are getting?

Might I ask what the actual loads were and the final results? That is indeed an interesting test you did!
Can you tell us how the bullets actually seated in the case i.e. in relation to the 'dough-nut' position? (Not suggesting there was a 'dough-nut' - just refering to where it would be).

Nice picture Woods! Thanks for replying!

I didn't even chrono the load yet; that's tomorrow. The load was .5 grains below the max published for the .300 win mag (H-4831sc 75 gr with a 165 gr Hornady SST). The load with the .243 wssm was right at max (44 gr of Win760 with a 95 gr Berger VLD). I had shot 95 gr Nosler BT's with the .243, so I wasn't worried about being over pressured with that rifle. With the .300, in the Lyman manual (notorious for hot loads) the max is 79 gr of H-4831. I went off of the data published by Hodgdon on their website. It said 75.5 gr. In the same gun I load 76.5 gr of the same powder with the Nosler Accubond 180gr. This bullet gives 3100fps +. I think that the velocity of the 165 at 75gr will be fine; it's accurate........

Please take the time (which isn't much; you just need to pick a charge and seat 12 bullets at different depths by .020") and try this!

I think you can tune any charge weight to shoot well by just changing the seating depth (OAL)

Some are not as infatuated with velocity as I am. I think you can just pick a charge somewhere safe in the middle of the data and tune it with seating depth...........

Check out the Berger website for the suggestions on the VLD seating depth. It says just what I'm talking about.

I would highly advise against that kind of test. I recently loaded a 22-250 with 1.5 gains below average, plenty of freebore and blew the primer out (along with the ejection button on my Savage POS). I was shocked, but glad that no real damage was done (especially to me!)

Vapodog!

I turn the necks on all my brass even though I have factory guns

Please try this! It doesn't take any time at all. You just need to seat 12 bullets with a predetermined powder charge.


I think you can get many Powder/Bullet combos to work in your rifle if you just concentrate on the seating depth!

I need somebody to help out! Every study needs multiple participants and a control group!

britz...........

You need to know your gun.

They shoot proof loads to test actions. One shot loaded well below the max published shouldn't be dangerous.

You could have made a mistake and overcharged the load........I had a buddy do that. He loaded 58. 4 gr instead of 54.8........

careful.

quote:

I need somebody to help out! Every study needs multiple participants and a control group!

Please define the study and how you'd like to do it...maybe I'll be a candidate if it seems somewhat valid!

303........


I did not note the donut position. The brass was new on the .300 so no donut and I turn till the cutter starts into the shoulder..........................

Well, I was reading the thread a couple of weeks ago about seating depth, so last week I decided to try it. Results were not what you have found. I loaded for my 223 rem with 55g Vmax with 26.5 Imr4895 cci primers. I loaded 5 cartriges at each prescribed seating depth .010 off the lands on down 4 sets = 20 rounds..030 off lands was best group @ 1.015 moa, most were 1.300 and larger. I also loaded 15 rounds with Sierra 55g spbt's to a col of 2.250 and all grops were under an inch best group was a 5 shot group that measured .465. So the theory prescribed by the original poster didn't work for me, that doesn't neccessarily mean it doesn't work at all. I will be doing some more experimentation and will report the findings, all I know is that Sierra 55g spbt will be my hunting load and I will shoot off the Vmax will become a plinking bullet and not a very good one out of my rifle. These were my findings with my rifle please don't shoot the messenger.

Thanks thirtycal.

Your gun obviously doesn't like the V-Max as much as the Sierra.

I do believe that every gun will tend to like certain bullets. The bullet my .300 win may not be liked by other .300 win's. I've seen it for a fact.

But I still contend (Hypothesize) that even if your rifle doesn't particularly like a certain bullet, you will get it shoot as well as it can shoot in your gun with this method.

Obviously, if you have a bullet your gun likes, the results will be as good as they can be. This is also true with the conventional method of varying the charge weight first, then tweeking the seating depth. I just think you can get to the most accurate load with the bullet of choice faster (basically by shooting 1/2 of the amount of rounds) by picking the velocity you wish to have (by using the data tables and a charge weight that will give the velocity close to what the tables state) and then simply tuning that round by varying the seating depth.

vapodog....

I really don't know how to define the study. I would like a few of you guys to do it like I say and report what you experience.

Pick a bullet you have never shot in your particular gun; a different weight would probably be a good way to tell. Go to the data tables for the powder you believe from experience might work. Choose a safe charge. I know this is ambiguous, but most everyone here has the experience and knowledge with their own firearm to know what is safe and about how far they can push it. I loaded very close to the max published because I want the highest velocity/most accurate load I can find.

Load 12 rounds with the exact same powder charge weight but vary the seating depth with the chosen bullet. Load 3 with the bullet on the lands, 3 - .020" off the lands, the next 3- .040" off of the lands and the last 3 - .060" off of the lands.

Go to the range and shoot the groups as you normally would to test a new load. Note and report what you find!

If you can, do this with a couple of rifles. You'll need something to shoot anyway while the first rifle is cooling between groups! This will help with the # of "participants" in the "study" by doubling them if everybody uses 2 rifles.

quote:

Pick a bullet you have never shot in your particular gun; a different weight would probably be a good way to tell. Go to the data tables for the powder you believe from experience might work. Choose a safe charge. I know this is ambiguous, but most everyone here has the experience and knowledge with their own firearm to know what is safe and about how far they can push it. I loaded very close to the max published because I want the highest velocity/most accurate load I can find.

Load 12 rounds with the exact same powder charge weight but vary the seating depth with the chosen bullet. Load 3 with the bullet on the lands, 3 - .020" off the lands, the next 3- .040" off of the lands and the last 3 - .060" off of the lands.

That defines it fairly well....I'll try to work it in between goose hunts locally!

Okay, so how do get past this instance.

I have a friend/client that wants a load for his 300 Wtby. I had a suspicion that the load data in the books would not produce the velocity that I needed but just to be safe I loaded up the middle load with RL19 and RL22 to see what kind of velocity his rifle would produce, medium load for safety sake

180 gr TTSX - book load 77 gr shows 3088 fps
180 gr TTSX - chronograph shows 2906 fps

180 gr TTSX - book load 78 gr shows 3039 fps
180 gr TTSX - chronograph shows 2858 fps

Now I'm certainly not going to load a 300 Wtby to just over 30-06 velocity and much less than the 300 win mag.

If I had just gone to seating depth to find the load then he would be shooting an anemic load at best. So, with that info that his gun was going to produce low velocity, I have loaded an Audette with RL19 from 78 gr to over 80 gr and with RL22 from 79.7 gr to 81.5 gr.

Now I'm looking for velocity range and group first by powder with the Audette and not seating depth.

rcamuglia, the other problem that I encountered was the rounds didn't fit in the magazine box with the Vmax, and 2 of the rounds seated .010 off the lands actually punched a hole in the primer. I won't be seating too close to the lands with near published max loads any longer. I too am a velocity freak, I want the load to shoot as flat as possible as long as accuracy is there, and from my experience speed doesn't always yield you the best accuracy. With that said, the woods I hunt here in the Northeast will hardly ever give you a 300 yd shot. 95% of the game I've taken has been within 100 yds and most shots are under 75 yds. I got the 223 to test my skills at the longer range stuff just because I like reloading and shooting. Even coyotes are taken in that range with good setups as long as you don't educate them. I stay in the thick stuff when hunting and use cover and the element of suprise. I'm not one of those high up overlooking fields and power line guys, I try to pattern game and get em before they enter these locations. I've been using the .243 for the yotes but now that I know the 223 with the Sierras will go where I want it to I have till 3/29 to see how the 223 will work on them. Sorry I got a little off topic should be posting last part on the varmint page.

Woods...

That's a good point and example of a problem that may occur.

When I recently tested some powders for velocity in my .264 Win Mag, I simply loaded 5 rounds with a varience of 2 grains between each round. I started below the published data and ended a little over the published max. I was able to find the highest velocity with each powder and bullet combo and got a good idea of where the pressure signs began in my rifle.

It only took 5 rounds to discover the "max for the gun".

I guess you could do this first to determine the highest velocity possible (or desired), then load 12 at that charge weight with seating depth variations to tune it. This would avoid the anemic load possiblility.

What do you think? It sure would be less shooting than a 20 shot ladder, loading a pick from the ladder (I might add that the pick from ladder may have been effected adversely by the chosen seating depth to begin with) varying the seating depth and shooting to pick the best depth.

That's at least 32 shots and may still result in nothing better than the other way.



I think from what I've learned on these forums that every charge weight may like a different seating depth to be accurate, right? So it then follows that if you shoot a ladder of rounds with different charge weights and only one seating depth that the rounds that group together will be the ones that happen to like the seating depth you chose!

Believe me, I've shot a lot of ladders and am now rethinking their reliability because of this. It looks to me like when a ladder is shot, the only thing that we are doing is picking a load that works with the seating depth we chose.


I think your scenerio really helps me noodle this out.
1. Find the velocity you want while monitoring pressure,
2. TRY to tune the load with the velocity you like by changing seating depth.

I guess this is finding the charge weight first, THEN tuning with seating depth. You're just not looking for accuracy at the same time you are looking for velocity. This may be the answer.

I think that trying to do both at the same time effects the results. Possible?

It may or may not work all the time, I don't know. I hope a few of you all will try this and report back. Yesterday I basically did this and it resulted in a load for each rifle that I consider more than acceptable, especially in my factory guns.



Hey thirtycal! No worries about being off topic. Did you find the load with the Sierras with this method? When you say speed doesn't always yield the best accuracy, I have been there. But I bet if you took the time to tune the speedy load with seating depth changes, accuracy would improve.

Just a theory. I'm hoping for either confirmations or rejections from a bunch of guys who've taken the time to try it like me.

Here is some information from the Berger website that I used to develop the loads. I did this with not only the VLD's but the SST's too and it worked. I found the velocity I wanted first (with the Win Mag, I just picked a charge weight 1/2 grain below published max) then did this test. I did it exactly as shown for the VLD but for the SST I only varied the depth by .020"


"The quickest way to find this sweet spot is to load ammo at four different COAL. Start with a COAL that allows the bullet to touch the rifling. The next COAL needs to be .040 off the lands. The third COAL needs to be .080 off the lands. The last COAL needs to be .120 off the lands. One of these COAL will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. It has been reported that the VLD bullets don’t group as well at 100 yards but get better as the bullet “goes to sleep” at further ranges. We have learned that by doing the four COAL test you will find a COAL where the VLD bullets will group well at 100 yards. Once the COAL that shoots best is established you can tweak +/- .005 or .010 to increase precision or you can adjust powder charges and other load variables. Frankly, those who do the four COAL test usually are happy with the results they get from this test alone."

quote:

Frankly, those who do the four COAL test usually are happy with the results they get from this test alone."

As we would say here down under - good on ya mate!

quote:

"The quickest way to find this sweet spot is to load ammo at four different COAL."

I agree. I start with an identical load and different seating depths. I then retain the OAL of the best shooting lot and go on tweaking the powder charge until desired accuracy is obtained. I find it faster than going the other way around.

Where have you guys been 303 guy and Andre??!!!

I'm glad you posted! From what I've tried, this seems to work best too.

Anybody else have this experience?

I will try this on my next load development project... interesting read.

chicken or egg? or cart and horse....

Jameister

I'm tellin' you, this method works! And fast!

"This is the fourth test I have done by picking the velocity (a set charge weight) and just tuning for accuracy by changing only the seating depth. It has worked well 3 of the 4 times. The one that didn't was the SST that shot good at 75 gr with depth tuning, but when I bumped it to 79 gr I couldn't tune it with depth changes."

Of the 3 times it worked, I found a good load in 12 shots. The one time it took 12 shots because the load happened to be the last set of bullets with the shortest OAL and I fired it last. One of the times I only fired 6 shots (with the 165 gr GameKing and 79 gr of H4831).

In 2 cases, a little charge weight tweeking helped, but I really didn't need it. I could have been happy with the load I picked by just OAL changes.


I'm done with this for a while.


Please keep posting any findings, good or bad, as I will check in............

Nothing new, been doing it for years myself. 1. seat into rifling. 2. base of bullet at neck shoulder junction. 3. in the middle of the 2. Then test. BERGER ATRICLE>> > "Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Background

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifles. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.


Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker"

It works with all bullets, but I have done it with only .020" depth changes

IMO, seating depth is more important than the charge weight you choose. I have been able to tune accurate loads by simply picking a safe max charge and varying seating depth. Further tuning can be done with charge AFTER you find the depth your gun likes with the bullet your gun likes..................