I am fairly new to reloading and I am getting really confused as I try to move to better dies for my rifle calibers.

Basically, I am reloading pistol for economy, but rifle for consistancy. I started with some inexpensive dies (Lee), FL resizing, etc.

So, I want to move up to weighing/sorting cases, turning case necks, uniforming primer pockets, and precise bullet seating. For this, I am just concerned with .30/06 and .223 right now (6.5/06 or 6.5 Gibbs later).

I purchased the Stoney Point OAL gauge, and now want some dies that will allow me to precisely set bullet depth. That seems more straight forward, either the RCBS or Redding Comp micrometer dies. Any preferences or recommendation on those?

I will be indexing the brass for particular rifles. What is really frustrating is the sizing dies. Hornady and Redding both offer neck bushing sizing dies, RCBS has a simple neck sizer, and Lee has the collet die. The marketing fog is so thick I can't make head or tails of which is which, the advantages, etc.

What are y'all using? What do you recommend?

Is anyone using the Lee factory crimp die after bullet seating with the RCBS or Redding Comp dies?

[ 12-19-2002, 01:38: Message edited by: TexasGunRunner ]

Like you, I am also fairly new to reloading. i've had this disease for almost 3 years now. There is no cure. I started out with RCBS and it is fine equipment, the pinnacle of customer service, and at a afair price.

Once I took possesion of a premium quality rifle, I began using the Redding Comp dies. They both do the exact same things, only the Redding does it with a bit more precision and makes some of the more technical aspects of reloading elementary. Bullet seating, and neck sizing are measured with the turn of a dial on top of the die, making it a breeze to adjust and also a breeze to duplicate for future loads, which is one of the the goals in reloading to me. It is a bit more trial and error with the RCBS dies.

My advice, for what it is worth, is not to cut corners when it comes to dies. Go with the best you can afford. You will not regret it. Jim R

[ 12-19-2002, 06:29: Message edited by: Jim R ]

TGR,

If your going to turn the necks you'll need bushing style dies to keep the proper neck tension on the bullet.

I just got some "S" dies from Redding with the TN bushings, sweet, no lube needed. I wish they had the match set with the Comp seater though. I use a razor knife on the tops of my Redding seaters to put hash marks on the top of the adjuster so there's 8 points of reference though. Each mark is equal to about 6-7 thou of adjustment. I like the sleeve that captures the case before the bullet gets seated that the comp dies have though.

TEX.,
So the equipment bug has struck again. Welcome to the club. When I first got into reloading I bought some used equipment made by Pacific. I should have asked why the equipment was for sale. Seems the seller was changing to RCBS. The Pacific equipment wasn't very good, maybe that's why they're out of business. I quickly replaced the Pacific equipment with RCBS and loaded an awful lot of ammo with it and was very happy with it. It was good enough to load match ammo. When I started into benchrest shooting I had trouble being competitive. I still use the RCBS Rockchucker press, but have switched to the Redding Competition dies. I like the idea of being able to try differetn sizing bushing to see the effect on accuracy. When I test different seating depths, the micro adjustment makes it so much easier than the standard RCBS seating dies.
I've tried a couple of Lee dies out of curiosity and wouldn't use anything by Lee if it was given to me. I wouldn't give two cups of sour beans for anything Lee makes.

To be honest, if your loading for hunting and recreational shooting, RCBS will handle all your needs and do a good job of it. You would never go wrong with the standard RCBS dies. If your getting into several different rifles of the same caliber, the Redding Competition dies have a lot to offer. If you are an accuracy fiend, turn all your case necks and insist that everything be exactly right, then the Redding Competition dies are the way for you to go. The Redding dies are costly. You can do a whole lot of shooting for the price difference. I hope that this is of some help. Good luck.

[ 12-19-2002, 14:49: Message edited by: BigBob ]

I have a 222rem sako with 6-24 scope. I have redding competition dies and lee fl dies as the Redding had to come from the US and took a while.

You will not be able to tell the difference until you get a professional front rest and all the bits.

Lee are great dies, all my hunting rifles have shot at or under half an inch with Lee dies. The redding 222 set is the only non Lee stuff I have.

I have used Lee dies and shy away from, mostly because of some cheap details like locking rings and adjustments. I use Forster dies and have found them to be excellent. I am curious about the Redding S type full size die with bushings for neck sizing, will give them a try. I would definitely go with Forster or Redding buying new dies. I use full size dies and back them out(co-ax press) or use redding comp. shellholders so I don�t bump the shoulder to far back. I don�t think neck sizing only is the way to go unless you only punch paper with the loads. I have some other Lee equipment, o-press for "light duties" and their powder measure. Proud of ownership is nill, but they have worked without a flaw for many years, so I think value for the money is excellent.

Tron

This gets really expensive...if I get the .30/06 Comp Bushing neck sizing die, the FL die (for the Garand semi-auto and occaisional FL resizing), and the comp bullet seating die.

Are you using the bullet seater for the crimping, crimping separately, or not crimping?

My personal preference is for the collet die, rather than the bushing die, the Redding body die, and a competition seater die.

IMO, this is not only the easiest way to size, it is also one of the, (if not THE) most accurate, and least expensive ways to go. HTH, Dutch.

Personally,

I think the best investment is to get a quality barrel fit and the action tuned, and then find the easiest way possible to load good ammo. You can either put 5 hours into making 20 rds of ammo to make your average rifle shoot well, or you can spend the $ to have a top notch tube fit, most importantly by a good smith. Then you'll shoot nice tight groups with ammo that doesn't take all day to make nor has to be produced to the nats ass in tollerances.

Much better to have a gun that shoots all ammo well then one you spend months trying to get a magic load for. Just add up the cost of a few pounds of powder, and a few boxes of bullets, and you've paid for a good barrel.

My 2 cents

I also have found myself asking these same questions. I agree that the price of the Lee collet die is significantly less that the Redding bushing die so I think I will have to give it a try. I also called Lee today to find a dealer in my area (no 800 #). The woman I talked to told me to go onto the internet to find one. I don't know why she couldn't have found one for me. I guess I'm used to RCBS customer service. I called them after buying a comp seating die with no directions. They are sending me the directions and a shell holder I didn't know I needed for free. Can't beat that I guess that's why they are the most available dies out there.

bluecollar

Try a set of the Lee Collets in 30-06. They work by virtue of a mandrel which slides into the case neck, and when the case is pressed up into the die, a collet collapses around the neck and mashes it against the mandrel. These neck size only, and are not useful for other than bolt action rifles.

If you're sizing fire formed cases with the Lee Collet die, that die will make ammo about as good as any die on the market can. You don't need case lube with the collet dies. Just adjust the die until the press arm *just* cams over. This will allow even neck tension on all of the cases.

Of course if you alter neck tension (as with Redding bushing dies), and change nothing else about the load recipe, accuracy will improve or degrade, depending. This is only due to the alteration in barrel time (the amount of time the bullet spends in the barrel). Barrel time will determine where in the harmonic whip of the muzzle the bullet is released. If you don't release on a good harmonic (static) node, you're going to have a linear or elongated group.

You can alter barrel time by altering seating depth, neck tension, primer choice, brass choice, and of course powder charge.

So don't worry about much of that. Just get a set of Lee Collet dies, and use some fire formed cases from you aught-six and try this recipe:

165 grian Sierra Gameking
57.5 grains of H4350 or IMR 4350
CCI 200 or Remington 9 1/2 or Federal primer

Start with the bullet a caliber's depth (.30") into the case. If groups aren't MOA or better, try moving the bullet in by .015", and then out by .015". See which direction improves the group (remember, you're altering barrel time with these seating depth variations).
There is absolutely noting sacred about distance to the lands--aside from the fact that a particular distance to the lands will be commensurate with a particular barrel time.

Show me a rifle that "doesn't like anything farther than .020" from the lands," and I can back that bullet up to .040" off the lands, alter the powder charge, and VOILA!~back in the groove...

One aside: If you're shooting ammo with a high degree of runout (bullet crooked in the case) getting closer to the lands will normally limit bullet deformation, and also reduce the tendency for the bullet to "yaw" (not fly perfectly straight for the first couple hundred yards). In these cases, accuracy is normally improved. This is another matter to discuss. But if you use the Lee Collet dies or the Reddings, runout should not be a problem...

Best of luck with your endeavors...

Dan Newberry
green 788

I agree with green788 about the collet die.I do use the Factory Crimp die just to "snug" the bullet in place though.The reason being it`s hard to get the same amount of neck tension on each case.The crimp die eliminates this part of the equation.

The bullet seater on this die set is different(it doesnt crimp) than the ones in the other sets.It touches the shell holder at full stroke.I seat the bullet with just a thumb and finger until full stroke.Then snug it with the crimp die.Eeasy sub MOA ammo with already trimmed and fireformed cases.I do believe fireformed cases are the key element here.

I use full length sized ammo for seating depth testing at the range.Then neck size and "snug" it at that depth.Takes the guess work out of it.

In fine print on the die set it says to turn the case in the shellholder(45degrees works for me) and resize a second time for(runout) added accuracy which I do.I don`t think there is an easier method.My best results have been on a single stage,non break-over type press.You`ll like the dies if you read the instructions included with them.

Mick Berger/tula9130

A couple of questions went unanswered.

The collet die sizes virtually all of the neck. If you want to partial neck size, you can put a spacer between the shell holder and the die. Cumbersome, but it works

The collet die works the die as little as possible, just like the bushing die. A standard die sizes the neck to minimum dimensions, and then sizes it back up to the right dimension. Essentially, that means you are sizing twice.

In the end, I prefer the collet die because of two things. One, I don't like having to buy all the bushings. It is expensive, and I never have the right one in the end. The second reason is that neck turning is not required, and if you do, you don't have to worry about getting each batch to within .0005 or less. You can go from a .268 to a .270 neck batch of brass, and not have to put another bushing in (or forget to...... not like that has ever happened to me . The collet die pretty much ignores the smaller variations, including the small out of round neck variations. The inside of the neck will be round, every time.

I also size twice with the collet dies. It seems "the right thing to do". FWIW, Dutch.

I've used all the methods of reloading and prefer a compromise.
I've used the Lee collet dies, too hard to get neck tension correct. I wouldn't even consider it for hunting loads. With practice it might be ok for paper punching.
Bushing dies are really only useful in custom chambered guns with tight necks. For this they are the best money can buy.
Regular neck size dies are a pain to use because of having to lube the inside of the case neck, but they work great. So, I buy a carbide button resizer for the dies and replace the standard resizing button. Now, all you have to do is clean the necks with a bore brush and size away. Works like a charm and is plenty fast.
You can get sizing buttons for RCBS dies from Redding or buy the whole redding dies with carbide sizers installed.