I have just switched to a slower powder (H4350/AR2209) so as to fill the case better. Well, I gave it the drop test and thought I was over-pressure. Here are somes pics. Please help me read the pressure signs.

...................this one.


.......................................................................................this one.


I conducted this test in my No4 because of its strength and while I am quite confident the load is not 'over max', it seems to me to be too high for the flexibility of the action. The case in question had fired plenty test loads before so could be considered 'old'. But for insipient head separation to appear, together with what appears to be increased pressure ring expansion and more than normal primer flattening ..... (Federal primers). In this rifle pressure increases normally show as 'squaring' of the firing pin indent.

There was indication from recoil of muzzle blast because the gun is fitted with a 'supressor/muzzle break'.

I have no intentions of using this high a load again. I just want to double check my interpretations.

Thanks.

It doesn't look like there's any cratering, and the corners of the primer still appear rounded.

Just old brass?

flaco

By the looks of the primers compared to the condition of the brass is contradictory. I agree with Flaco in that the primers/case heads don't appear to be suffering any maladies associated with over pressure and may be old brass that has hardened from many firings. My normal loads flatten primers a lot more than those in the pictures and I don't consider them unsafe, although I have never loaded for 303Brit. I did own a #4 Enfield many years ago, before I got into reloading, that had been cheaply sporterized. I really liked that rifle but I inadvertantly shot some ammo that was primed with corrosive primers that heavily pitted the barrel and it went for trade material for another gun.

looks to me like someone chattered the reamer cutting the chamber a little!

Thank you for your responses.

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looks to me like someone chattered the reamer cutting the chamber a little!

Looking closer at the pic, I see what you mean! Actually, that is light effect. In different light there is no sign of chattering. This rifle actually has quite a nice chamber.

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... I inadvertantly shot some ammo that was primed with corrosive primers that heavily pitted the barrel ...

My No4 barrel is heavily pitted too! That's why I got it cheap. I was goint to cut it down for close range bush hunting but discovered it shoots pretty damn good! I is pitted but the bore is nevertheless still on spec and the pits seems to hold lube, making it not lead or copper foul!
the load i tested was a near max for a 'tight chambered' Lee Enfield so shouldn't have gone over SAAMI max but could be simply over max for the regidity of the action - from a reloading point of view anyy, if I want any kind of decent brass life. Anyway, I have always found the 303 Brit to be plenty powerful with moderate loads. In fact, with ordinary 180gr cup 'n core bullets, it makes one helluva fine game cartridge!

Of course, being a conservative loader, this particular load is 'hotter' than my norm. All I really want is enough pressure to burn the powder properly and consistantly - like with the comparison primer. That's my 303-25 - it may not exceed SAAMI spec. It's a MkIII action. And it doesn't need to. It has plenty performance! (It's a beautiful cartridge, actually).

At least one of these cases is showing early (insipient) signs of case separation.

303guy,
I strongly suggest that if you're serious about reloading and shooting then you look for a good modern type of action.....are the 1914 actions available there?.....there must be something better than the no-4.....and may I suggest the WWII Mausers as well!

Even an ugly Savage is better than the Lee Enfield

Your pressure ring swelling and primer characteristics look moderate for the case that is almost separated. There is nothing wrong with the load. It shows less pressure than most factory loads.
I have purchased once fired .303 brass a number of times and found both incipient and partial separations. Brass fired as factory loads will often separate on the first firing with a starting load. The separations I have seen occurred with 4 different common brands of brass.
My take on it is, if you insist on reloading a Lee-Enfield you have to be very careful. That means using very low pressure loads after careful examination of brass.
All efforts should be made to minimize any stretching due to headspace and the huge diametral clearance that normally exists with Lee-Enfield chambers. The head of .303 brass usually measures .450 to .452. The head end of the chamber will measure .460. The LE extractor pushes the case head to one side of the chamber resulting in all the diametral stretching at the pressure ring occurring on one side.

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Your pressure ring swelling and primer characteristics look moderate for the case that is almost separated. There is nothing wrong with the load. It shows less pressure than most factory loads.

This is what I thought. But if one looks at the 'comparison' case - same brand - there is little sign of the pressure ring.

I have 303 Brit cases that are 25 years old and still going strong. This particular case may have been stressed previously in a rifle with excess headspace. But that insipient separation ring did not appear til now and it made me wonder.

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... there must be something better than the no-4.....

This may be so, but ....
I do prefer the cock on opening of other actions. It was quite common to hear of mauser blow-ups but for all the numbers of older Lee Enfields... well, one never heard of it! And that includes blow-ups in military service with military ammo! Most if not all blow-ups reported on this and other forum are mauser type actions. I used to think that head separation issues were unique to Lee Enfields but have since found this not to be so. BUT... one should not load a Lee Enfield beyond it's flexing limitations. (I did eventually hear of a Lee Enfield being damaged from an overload. It did not blow up but it bent and won't operate. The guy forgot what load he was using and seated 180gr bullets over a warm load for 150 grainers. A Lee Enfield won't survive that kind of abuse but won't blow up either. Other than that, they make excellent rough rifles and are very smooth to operate - and fast!) I will one day find a rifle that has a smoother action than my old 1902 MkI - hopefully in 6.5 Swede - and will settle for that..

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The LE extractor pushes the case head to one side of the chamber

My MkIII does not. The extractor is pushed of the case by the extractor recess in the breach face. I noticed that my others have a different shape extractor and was aware of the case being pushed sideways and of difficulty setting the extractor over a chambered round but have not gotten around to fixing that - yet.

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there must be something better than the no-4.....and may I suggest the WWII Mausers as well!

OK then, thinking about a better action, a P14 action did come up recently. Apparently with stuffed barrel so it should have been cheap enough. But those things are heavy and they still cock on closing. I do like my 10 round magazine. It carries my days supply of ammo and usually I will not need to replenish it although I have come close once or twice. It never runs dry anyway.

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Originally posted by vapodog:
At least one of these cases is showing early (insipient) signs of case separation.

My concerns exactly.

I'll be a heretic here. First. The signs shown are typical for the reloaded WW case, it is just no good. It has given me the shortest case life of any of my .303 cases - CAC, Federal, DI, Riverbrand, NNy, etc. I have plenty of WW brass - once fired - that is really bulged out not only from the typical .303 chamber but because the case is to the lower dimension. The primers look Ok to me.

Second. You don't detail your load. The ADI site for AR2209 says a Compressed load of 48 gr for the 180gr and 45 gr of 2209 for the 215gr - I have some of those left !. The Hodgden site gives the same 48gr H4350 Compressed for the 180gr Sierra for 43 800 CUP. I cannot see how you can overload the .303 if 48 grains AR2209 Compressed is OK for the 180gr. Granted, a 150gr projectile with 50 gr of 2209 may be pushing 45 000 CUP but that is within the safe range of even a MLE - and that's with a cordite load pushing a 174gr Mk7 as well.

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Originally posted by doclee:

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Originally posted by vapodog:
At least one of these cases is showing early (insipient) signs of case separation.

My concerns exactly.

303s are known for not getting very long brass life....

the case on the left also shows signs of being reloaded multiple times to me...and full length resized...I'd predict it has one more load and firing in it at best.. and the next firing would case a case seperation at the worse...

I'd back off my max velocity if using that No 4 action...I'd also consider unsing faster powder...

In my similar American 30/40 Krag, I have settled on 25 grains of SR 4759 as the max charge in that rifle...which works with any bullet weight from 220 grain down to 110...

The Krag isn't a strong action, but it is better than the Lee Enfield...

as said above, consider a Mauser action or a good old P 14... I have a P 17 Enfield, and that action is built like a 53 Buick...

Don't have a clue why the Brits stuck with the Lee Enfield when Enfield made the P 14...

H 322 is a great powder for the 303 or the 30/40 Krag.. I don't know what the ADI equivalent is tho...

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Don't have a clue why the Brits stuck with the Lee Enfield when Enfield made the P 14...

War! The P14 was in development stage when war broke out then after that the No4 was developed. Those P14's built were due to rifle shortages. Likewise the Model 17 when the US had arms shortages and by then the Brits no longer needed the P14. The main reason however was the success record of the Lee Enfield on the battle field. And the P14 was way too heavy! It's a horrible thing in military dress. But as I have said before, Lee Enfield brass can last as long as any other. My MkI has a very tight chamber and brass lasts forever. One should never trim the necks too short as it will never grow! If one wants top performance from the LE then one might try BLC(2). That powder seems to produce rediculous velocities in the Brit at modest pressure. But I should just say, the Brit is good for 2300fps with 180gr bullets and 2600fps with 150's. BLC(2) would give another 100fps without pressure increase and that equals indefinate case life.

I did say the case was old!

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... it seems to me to be too high for the flexibility of the action. The case in question had fired plenty test loads before so could be considered 'old'.

Maybe that case was going to fail anyway - it would have been full length resized more than once and was not new when I got it. That's why I was using it for testing only. The shoulder moves by about two millimeters on full length sizing!

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Don't have a clue why the Brits stuck with the Lee Enfield when Enfield made the P 14...

Besides the obvious one - the factories were tooled up for the SMLE and the P14 factories were all in the USA and the SMLE was needed NOW rather than retool for the P14.

Very fast action - Sgt Snoxall at 38 rounds in the Mad Minute, Action open and easy to clean if clogged with mud, 10 round magazine, big sloppy chamber to take muddy, corroded and out of spec ammo produced in a hurry by firms who had never produced ammo before, damm good gas escape control. Two piece stock with the butt held on by a long bolt - not easy to break when used as a club, the MkIII* SMLE the end result of continual assessment and modification since 1888, an action STRONG ENOUGH for the round it fired, well protected sights.

It was a rifle made to be used in combat - and this was in spite of the "Bisley Tigers" who kept moaning that it was inaccurate - similar to the 'Camp Perry' syndrome who put those wierd sights on the 03 Springfield.

Oh yes, it was on the winning side in the Boer War, WW1, WW2, Korea and the Malayan Emergency.

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You don't detail your load. The ADI site for AR2209 says a Compressed load of 48 gr for the 180gr

I used 45.8gr AR2209 behind a 180gr Highland bullet. That's all the case holds before compression begins.

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The signs shown are typical for the reloaded WW case, it is just no good.

That's my impression too. They seem weak and brittle. I have a number of 303-25 cases that split on firing and some that split before firing. I just thought these cases were not annealed before sizing to 25 then found some splitting even with annealing. I have one that lost its bullet in the magazine! That particular one is bulged to the side of the neck.

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an action STRONG ENOUGH for the round it fired,

You forgot to mention the effectiveness to of the round! The Japs even 'copied' it because it worked so well against them! (Or someone they knew well). But they were clever - they used the mauser case but then they found it too powerful so went back to their 6.5. But they did have a machine gun cartridge almost interchangeable with the 303 Brit.

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Originally posted by 303Guy:

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The case in question had fired plenty test loads before so could be considered 'old'.

Maybe that case was going to fail anyway - it would have been full length resized more than once and was not new when I got it. That's why I was using it for testing only.

All of my reloading books suggest only using new or once fired cases in load testing.

funny you should show this as i had seen the effects earlier in your picture.
looked just like the 303 casess i have.
i keep them separate for my 2 03's and try to only neck size.
still 10 loads on a case is stretching it out.

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All of my reloading books suggest only using new or once fired cases in load testing.

Ah yes! This particular 'test' was to check for pressure and to test the 'suppressor-break' modifications. It was just fired into a bank in the dark. I watched (and listened) from the side to see the muzzle flash - just a dull red glow in front of the device, not visible through the scope. Sounds like a 22magnum. But I don't see the value of using new cases - unless the idea is to 'fire-form' them during development stages.

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still 10 loads on a case is stretching it out.

Well, yes... You will have detected that as a Lee Enfield loader I am actually quite conservative with my loads. This conservatism allows me to safely lube my loaded rounds which prevents binding in the chamber on firing, allowing the case to progressively settle back against the bolt face as it recedes under pressure (all bolt faces do that). The case still grips the chamber wall but as it stretches rearward, it progressivly slides, spreading the stretching over the whole body length, keeping the strech within the elastic limits of the brass. Now all one has to do is prevent case neck splits by annealing and not over sizing and the case will last as long as the neck holds out. 20-30 loadings easy! Polishing the chamber will have the same effect, I should emagine. Lubing the brass will not prevent case grip. I have sean a lubed case grip the chamber walls and allow the primer to remain pushed out by a millimeter! (That rifle died due to peaning of the lug recess from excess headspace).

Was your case used in may test firing in your test tube? I would guess it wouldn't take many shots for case head separation when the powder is piled up ageist the bullet and has to expand to the primer first if in the vertical position.
(god I hate using spell check!)

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Originally posted by seafire2:

Don't have a clue why the Brits stuck with the Lee Enfield when Enfield made the P 14...

The lee enfield was the best bolt action military rifle ever made. It's only weakness for a military rifle was the rim on the round which required care when loading to prevent jamming.

I personally have shot an infantry annual personal weapons test designed for semi automatic scoped assault rifles with a no4 converted to 308 and with a spare mag instead of stripper clips (don't have those for 308)

I dropped 2 points on the respirator phase - that was it. Bearing in mind that was higher than I could do with the SA80 I'd say it's proof that it was a fantastic military rifle.

I do shoot 98 mausers for stalking etc but that's not military. The enfield is the fastest highest capacity bolt rifle made - period.

To indicate pressure/temperature when firing a load, I always use a technique similar to when you are aligning gear wheels to make sure they are having correct contact patern, for that you use a marking ink
But for pressure/temperature indicator I use a ink pen to mark the brass on it’s base like shown on the picture. The base may never make contact to the chamber (with the stem from your slide gauge you can measure where the base is in your brass)

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But for pressure/temperature indicator I use a ink pen to mark the brass on it’s base like shown on the picture.

Good idea, BlaserGun. I used a similar technique when developing a load for my hornet. But I wasn't clever enough to think of using a pen! Those expansion rings are hard to see, let alone measure, on those tiny cases. The primer 'flattening' in your Swede looks nice and moderate. The 30-06 would be more than I would want to see on my No4. Federal primers are supposed to be 'soft' so they should show max Lee Enfield pressure quite nicely. (I don't mean max design pressure, I mean max pressure for accuracy and case life).

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The lee enfield was the best bolt action military rifle ever made. It's only weakness for a military rifle was the rim on the round which required care when loading to prevent jamming.

True. I've botched it once or twice! But the rim had an advantage. By headspacing on the rim, the chamber could be generous, allowing for reliable operation under adverse conditions. Dirt that would jam up a rimless case would not affect the rimmed Brit case - unles you do like I do and headspace on the shoulder. But as a battle rifle, I think the Lee Enfield was superb! As a sporting rifle it is not too bad. It does have a safety issue for carrying a round in the chamber, ready for cocking. Firstly, the firing pin rests on the primer. Secondly, the cocking piece can slip out of your fingers under a scope before the half-cock is reached and the gun will fire! (Just don't ask me how I know that!) I have midified my 303-25 by adding another notch which hold the firing pin off the primer. This notch also catches the cocking piece should it slip out your fingers. The half cock on the earlier models was not a safety either - a firm squeeze of the trigger would fire the gun! MkIII's and No4's will not fire from half-cock. But as a shooting piece, the Lee Enfield is quite satisfactory if it has a good barrel and tight chamber and one remembers that the action is flexible at higer pressure.

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Was your case used in may test firing in your test tube? I would guess it wouldn't take many shots for case head separation when the powder is piled up ageist the bullet and has to expand to the primer first if in the vertical position.

James, The case was used like that but most of those loads were quite light. I used it for fire-lapping and thinking about it, it was full length size quite a few times to fit other chambers! Mmmm.... I had forgotten about that! But aside from the separation signs, it is the primer indications that I am looking at. I'm not used to that much edge 'flattening'. But as pointed out, the load I tested was well below listed max. It did at least show the effectiveness of the mods to my muzzle break/suppressor - in the dark. Hardly any muzzle flash!

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(god I hate using spell check!)

Yeah, me too! I thought I would just learn to spell but that's easier said than done. I'm highly prone to typo's. Which spell check are you using?

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The Krag isn't a strong action, but it is better than the Lee Enfield...

Ummmm.... why exactly? (I have never seen a real life Krag but plenty of pictures and diagrams).

1, spell check is the one that comes on fire fox, 2 I just was unsure that if firing straight down with so much empty space in the rifle would make a difference in case life or not. Because of the powder in cases with a lot of open space would negative affects to case life or back pressure. Of cores that would be for the people who do it quite often and not the every now and again-ers.

Ever day reading this you learn a little more, and every day you can start to tell why a lot of people have brown eyes. Because when so full of it you've stained your eye pigment with it.

I understand that firing a rifle straight down does indeed raise chamber pressure if the case is not full!

Having a look at other failed cases (neck splits), they are also W-W Super brass. Old 303 Brit cartridges also split on firing and sometimes without firing. Cheap brass that age hardens. I have one that was sized to 25 (with primer in place) that split without firing.

I am beginning to think the primer flattening is more a function of time than pressure. Looking at the firing pin indent, there is less 'squaring' of the primer than on the comparison primer. The appearance of the expansion ring is most likely from previous firings.



I would still like to hear why folks think of the Lee Enfield as being an unworthy rifle to reload for? My only complaint with them is the cock-on-closing.

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I would still like to hear why folks think of the Lee Enfield as being an unworthy rifle to reload for? My only complaint with them is the cock-on-closing.

I agree with that statement. I never had a issue reloading for the 303, except when using lee dies. I had more bent brass from those dies then any rcbs, hornady, and lyman combined!

Some feed-back.
From the replies I realized I was nowhere near overload so i loaded up another test batch but this time using 46.3gr AR2209/H4350. (They are not exactly the same apparently - different lots or something). Hodgdon list a max of 48gr while ADI lists a 'load' of 47gr. My should give me around 2400fps - a good load. The test was 'informal' with the rifle not zeroed for that load nor a different suppressor baffle. all shots fired hit point of aim at around 150m. I thought that was pretty good for a starting load - it's on 'paper'. Two cases I examined show one very normal primer flattening and the other a bit more but with similar firing pin indents. I concluded that I likely set the shoulder back during neck sizing on the one case and this resulted in the primer backing out and getting reseated as the case settled back against the bolt face.

This time, both cases are the same load.

I turned my #4 into the epps version (also did a P14 as well) once brass fire formed it lasts forever,i beleive there is a kiwi version kicking around as well why not do that.

I read somewhere, think on this forum, that the lots in powders sometimes can be rather huge! So you may need to lower or raze the powder charge from lot to lot. My next powder perches will be larger amounts of my favorite powders.

I also cannot or do not see the marks on these cases/primers.
My most resent trip to the range, found my Springfield 1903A3 doesn't like Unique powder much. My accrercy was of moderate performance and on a mid range powder charge I ended up with dimpling around the firing pin dent on the primer.
So unless a friend of mine who is just starting out in reloading buys the powder, I m going to blow it up!

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I also cannot or do not see the marks on these cases/primers.

Mmmm.... Not a very clear pic. I'll have to do another one.

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... the lots in powders sometimes can be rather huge!

We have a problem relating one set of manufacturers load data to the lot of powder it refers to. I think Hodgdon powders are more consistent, being blended and made in larger quantities and to Hodgdon's specs.

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I turned my #4 into the epps version ...

That would keep my cases from getting mixed around. How much difference does it make to performance? I'm not really looking for more performance but if the bullet I am using doesn't perform well at current velocities, then going up a notch would not be a bad thing. Definately nothing wrong with lowering the pressure for the same performance. I must say, now that my muzzle break/suppressor is performing well, recoil and muzle lift is no longer an issue for me - nor is muzzle blast. I wouldn't mind doing an 'Epps' on my 303-25. Not that it's too slow as it is but a heavier bullet would widen it's usefulness a bit I think and a faster bullet would flatten it's trajectory some. But both these rifles are actually shooting well so, if it aint broke..... I did think of rechambering the 25 to a 257x57 rimmed - a 257 Roberts reamer is all that is needed! I'd also like to put the 25 barrel on a No4 action.