I recently posted for the first time in a long time observing that I intended to further examine the concept of small charges of fast propellent in rifle cartriges.

At least two members of this forum referred me to a series of threads with extremely stong (maybe even confrontational) exchanges of positions on safety and documentation issues raised by the use of any other than traditional powders in traditional cartridges.

Without re-opening any of loading procedure and/or saftey issue questions and hopefully without re-opening strong exchanges of position found in the threads I was referred to, I would like to offer the following website:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

This site arrays the pressure data and graphing for the loads that they present. I have used many of the loads on this site with the Oregon Trail bullets recommended. Some of these I loaded only out of curiosity.

It appears to me that they have done EXTENSIVE research and testing centered around the use of fast powder as rifle propellants with cast lead bullets.

Again, please take a look at the data provided on the site http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm.

While not advocating that anyone change their opinion or their position, to me, it would seem that the data on this site might "put to rest" some of the questions of low powder volume "detonation" at least for the powders they list for use with the Oregon Trails bullets.

This is meant as information only.

Thanks RC

Very interesting. There is a German cast bullet manufacturer called H&N who also developed a lot of reduced rifle loads, mostly with Vihta N110 but also with Red Dot and Unique.

Unfortunately they no longer publish their data on their website, you have to buy the book which is worth the money but only available in German.

H&N cast bullets

I have a PDF here with some reduced rifle loads, anyone interested please drop me a PM with a mail adress.

quote:

While not advocating that anyone change their opinion or their position, to me, it would seem that the data on this site might "put to rest" some of the questions of low powder volume "detonation" at least for the powders they list for use with the Oregon Trails bullets.

This is actually more of a human factors discussion than reloading. I have been aware of that data for 4 or 5 years. I have referenced it and used some of it. There is a lot of similar data in some of the Lyman manuals especially the cast bullet manual.
There is one issue with the data anyone that uses it has to address. Some of the powder charges are so small that double and triple charges are possible. If you don't have a 100% sure way to deal with this possibility you are eventually not going to like the result.
There have been a lot of blown up guns from this and almost invariably no one wants to fess up to making the double charge error.

Riding a motorcyle on the highway is many times more dangerous then driving my car. The consequences of a motorcyle accident are MUCH more severe then a car accident at the same speed. I wouldn't DREAM of riding a motorcycle on the highway, but, I know of some that love it. Each to their own I guess. SR-4759, I love that powder (another fascinating one to me). While I own and have played with Trail Boss, to date it doesn't show any of the accuracy that I get with the SR-4759 although you can put Trail Boss in Anything. I have a speer number 9 loading manual, that I believe has a jacketed SR-4759 load for every rifle cartridge of any size. Lyman 49 only published for HCB's (which I shoot a lot of too). Anyway, my point in putting up the data was that even though these types of loads are of interest to some and too dangerous for others, they are valid and some pretty thorough empirical testing was done at least with the Oregon Trail Cast Bullets.
Thanks to all. rc

RC, you're right about the reduced cast bullet loads so ignore the nay-sayers.

Many people are frightened of things they know little about. Or, worse yet, things they know just enough about to get really freightened! Like those who know guns can kill so they are to scared to be around them, or reloaders who have heard of "detonation" with light charges and don't know it has been done quite safely from the earliest days of cartridge reloading...proving only that a little knowledge can be a scary thing!

Fact is, a fool can kill himself with a spoon, it just takes awhile! But, I won't be giving up my spoon because a few don't know the limits on it's use. Nor my guns. Nor even my 30-06 cast bullet loads with 2400 powder!

RC, you're partially right about the reduced cast bullet loads but it is foolish to ignore the Warnings of others who have experienced Erratic Pressure Indications in "some" Reduced Loads.

Many people are not frightened of things they believe they know a lot about. Or, worse yet, things they know just enough about to think they know all there is to know! Like those who know unloaded guns can't kill so they handle them in an Un-Safe way and people get Killed, or reloaders who have heard of "detonation" with light charges and don't know enough about it to be cautious, because Detonations, Pressure Excursions and Secondary Explosion Effects have been occurring from the earliest days of cartridge reloading...proving only that a little knowledge can be a scary thing!

Fact is, a fool can kill himself with a spoon, or an improper use of Powder, occasionally it just takes awhile! But, I won't be giving up my spoon because a few don't know the limits on it's use. Nor my guns.

I am usually pounded over the head writing about my light loads using red dot and plain based cast bullets in my military rifles. I shoot thousands of them every year practicing offhand.

I always keep my empty cases upside down until they are loaded. I flip up each case, drop the powder and load the bullet before I put it down that way I don't double-load. It's critical one gets a routine going to head a double load.

I also shoot the very slowest powders; 860 and 872 50 cal powders in the same rifles. I buy it by the multiple eight pounders. The loads run about 2000 fps and are the most accurate I've ever found in most of my rifles.

Keep in mind the people trashing you would never dare do it to your face. The internet brings out the bullies in people, the lowest form of human behavior.

TED

FWLIW, I have been much happier with mid level doses of XMP 5744, XMR 5744, etc. in 375 H&H, 416 Rem, 416 Rigby, etc.

The bang is not too loud, there is just enough recoil, and accuracy can be surprisingly good.

My only dog in the fight is to recommend a harder cast (21 Brinell +/-), gas checked bullet. I kept trying to use up some softer, but still gas checked 350 grain bullets for the various 416s. It was fun to shoot, but surely made a mess of the bore on three different rifles. This was at 1,650 fps.

I switched to hard cast bullets and life got better all the way around.

The basic data comes from the Accurate Reloading Manual, 2nd Edition.

Thanks for the lead (not lead) on the german text.

LD

Thanks for the information TED. You might want to always warn us other pilgrims to NOT do that in gas operated rifles. Common sense being uncommon and all. Twenty years ago a fellow at one of the ranges in central Illinois, was proud of being frugal. He insisted on shooting lead bullets out of his AR 15. I said, "Dude, look, I'll give you FREE 55 grain bullets and your choice of powder." Nope. So we all watched and waited. I didn't get to see it, but his gas tube eventually got enough lead coated on the inside that his rifle was short stroking some of the time, and then all of the time one fine fall Saturday. Someone said for him to stop shoooting and put in a new gas tube. He only had ten rounds left, so he said, "I'll just shoot these up and then clean 'er real well." Then along came Murphy. He had a squibb, didn't notice, and sent the next one down the tube. I was told, but didn't get to see, what all happens when hot gas blows back into the action without making the trip via the gas tube.

That guy probably went home and tried to hammer the magazine back into a useful form.

Are these what used to be called gallery loads?

This subject will not be of interest to everyone, and, like choosing to ride a motercycle on the highway, for some the risks associated with the loading techniques will NOT be worth the potential for catastophe if mishandled.

All: If I limit my discussions to only powders listed within the GMDR study and/or existing PUBLISHED Powders/Bullet ranges (I have a collection of loading books to include work from the late 50's to the present) can I discuss my tests, findings, and results on this site?
This is a great forum because of the diversity of the shooters and the experience of the reloaders. I load and shoot from .32 ACP through 45-70. I like old cartriges (.45 LC and 45-70), I am a fan of the entire range of the "dirty thirty's (30-30,308,30-06) and I just started working up a 300 RUM.

This subject is not of interest to everyone, and, like choosing to ride a motercycle on the highway, for some the risks associated with the loading techniques will NOT be worth the potential for catastophe if mishandled.

The standard cast bullet loads for medium sized rifle cases is 9 grains of Unique or 12 grains of Red Dot. This works well with 6.5 x 55, 30-06, 7 x57, 8 x57, 308, 303, 30-40 Krag Etc. Do as stated earlier, Never Charge an Upright Case! Too easy to double, triple, or quadruple charge these cases with these cat sneeze loads. Most rifles will need the sights set @ 600 yds or more to hit @ 100 yards. Garand guys usually use 30 gns of 3031 with gas checks.

If detonation was possiable with small charges of fast burning smokeless powders. Why isn't investagated and then the millary could make hand grandes very cheaply instead of useing a few onces of high explosive. Just use a few grains of bullseye.

I fairly sure that the people who have blown up rifle swear afterwards that they only put in a couple of grains.

I too have loaded thousands of rounds of lead bullet loads with red dot ect.

Lawndart, I like the harder cast bullets as well. I am using commercial HC bullets that include a small ammount of silver added to their alloy. I have with really good results as far as no/low leading at realistic cast velocities.

Airgun1: I am going to make that into a t-shirt. It is now added to my list of "life advice". "Never Charge and Upright Case" is short, sweet, and absolutely correct ESPECIALLY when building these loads.

thanks rc

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
... Like those who know unloaded guns can't kill so they handle them in an Un-Safe way and people get Killed, ...

I think Hot Core has nailed it! (That's not to say that folks who do that sort of thing are anything less than human, the point is we are human and thus we need to take appropriate precautions - like not practicing our fast draw in a mirror! Don't ask!)

The possibility of double or triple charges is but one of the pitfalls of small charges. Those small charges also move around alot in the case before firing, giving nonuniformity of ignition, and rapid bullet acceleration. All these pitfalls can be avoided by using large amounts of slow powders. For example, in the 416 Rigby I use 125 grainms of AA8700 with the 350-grain cast RCBS .417 gascheck bullet at a BNH of 21. This is a very accurate load wwith a MV of 2200 FPS. A good deer load for the 416 Rigby.

We have been using all sort of pistol and shotgun powders to load reduced ammo for rifles for years, and have never had any problems.

In fact, we load greatly reduced loads using jacketted bullets, not cast.

As long as one understands that he is only using these powders for low velocity, and not try to push it too high, there won't be any problems whatsoever.

When shooting these cat sneeze loads we typically raise the muzzle to vertical and tap a bit to get the powder charge back by the primer and then slowly lower the muzzle to the target, trying to keep the charge back there.

Accuracy suffers and often times one gets a face full of gas from the case not expanding quickly enough when you forget to seat the charge back by the primer.

quote:

Originally posted by RCHOUSER:
All: If I limit my discussions to only powders listed within the GMDR study and/or existing PUBLISHED Powders/Bullet ranges (I have a collection of loading books to include work from the late 50's to the present) can I discuss my tests, findings, and results on this site? ...

Hey RC, The folks running this site allow a very "Free-Flow" of information and discussions. I can think of no reason you would get in bad with them - as long as there is no vulgarity.

If there is anything else that gets people banned, I've not tripped over it.

One of the very best things about this site is we can "disagree" with each other and still not get in trouble when the disagreement is done in a non-malicious manner. And when we get to know each other well enough, we can trade "barbs" if it seems appropriate.

I use Down Loads in some of my firearms too. Good things to know about and a lot of fun to shoot. I do strongly encourage folks to use Down Loads found in Manuals where they have been well Tested and Verified as Safe on $$$MILLIONS$$$ of "Calibrated to a known Standard" Factory Pressure equipment.

This site is blessed with a whole lot of very knowledgeable Reloaders. And we all tend to do things slightly different from each other. That provides an outstanding opportunity for someone(me included) to learn a new Method or Trick from time to time.

Best of luck with your Manual Listed Down Loads. I look forward to seeing what you have noted as working well for you.
-----

By the way, I "now" consider using Non-Factory Tested Down Loads as similar to filling the Gas Tank on the side of the truck from an open-topped 5-gal bucket while smoking a big ole Cigar. No doubt it is possible to do without a problem "on occasion", but it is simply a matter of time before the inevitable Ka-Boom.

Thanks Hot Core for your gracious response. I just don't want to be causing problems by accident. This is an amazing forum and the posters are shooters. I posted a start of workup for my new 300 Rum and 200gr SMKS but after 5 tests of Retumbo (found one sweet node at 89gr) I also ran 2 loads of SR4759 with a 168gr AMAX. Very Pleasant. I want to find a SR4759 node (if it exists within the powders working bands). I am waiting for 200 gr ab's, bergers, SGK's, 208 Amax's, and some more SMK's. For the first rounds, I am only working the 200+ gr for sectional density and bc. Again, thanks for the welocome and thanks to all who make the site great. rc

quote:

As long as one understands that he is only using these powders for low velocity, and not try to push it too high, there won't be any problems whatsoever.

That is the key.

I've been casting my own boolits for some years now, including boolits for all my .30 caliber rifles including the AK/SKS stuff. I do use gas checks on all long gun boolits, but I don't worry about an overly high BHN. Wheel weights with a dash of lino in them, water quenched and then sized and lubed that same day more than does the trick for me. I'm getting over 2500fps from a modified 185 gr 1R boolit out of my 30-06 with no leading and touching groups.

Likewise, I can also dump ten or twelve grains of Unique in that 30-06 case and have myself a really fun, accurate low-velocity plinking round. Like more folks who cast their own boolits, I have a number of pet loads for rifles in which I use some of the pistol powders like Blue Dot, Unique, 2400, etc.

The safety part of it is up to you, the reloader.

Recluse, I have a years supply of 170 gr HC at .309 that I use in all my 30's for fun. I also have the 113 gr .309 lee mould for the soup cans. This bullet also goes down the bore of all my 30's and is my favorite small game out of my 308 1:12 twist bolt gun with small charges of non-traditional fast powder. Life does not always have to take place above 2000 fps. I shoot alot of lead that NEVER goes supersonic (45-70's) and still have a great time (plus eat well). Again, thanks to all. rc

Agree. More to life than 2000fps.

I've been kicking around the idea of picking up that little 113 gr boolit mould from Lee for quite a while.

Prior to my playing around with some Unique and Blue Dot loads, I'd forgotten how fun simple plinking with a rifle, especially a centerfire rifle can be.

I have an abundance of large rifle primers on hand, mucho plenty WWs and plenty of powder--with that combination, I can load and shoot my .30 calibers almost as cheap as I can shoot my .22LR rifles.

But the BIG difference is. . . I can always guarantee I'll have ammo to shoot in my centerfires. After this last ammo scare (that is still going on, albeit starting to slow down a bit), .22LR got more scarce than Obama's birth certificate.

Thanks for reminding me about that 113 gr mould.