45-70 Govt. for Cape Buffalo, seemingly it's been done. There's a post/thread in here with some guy and a Marlin 1895 lever action in 45-70 Govt.

The Marlin won't feed the "big/heavy bullets." Marlin 1895 tops out about 350 gr. -- and then in some bullets and not others because of OAL for the bullet cannalure, seating, etc.

But the Ruger No. 1 "feeds" anything that fits in the chamber. Heavy bullets need to be seated of the lands, but the Ruger No. 1 will manage a 500 gr. bullet with no problems.

Also, the Ruger No. 1 is designed to manage heavy calibers like the .375 H&H Mag, .416 Rigby, .458 Lott, .458 Win Mag, and can be chambered for .460 Weatherby Mag.

-- And so . . . 45-70 Govt. load for Cape Buffalo, in a Ruger No. 1.



Leupold VXIII 1.5 - 6x 32mm.

Load 500 gr. Speer "African Grand Slam" 0.458" jacketed, soft lead, flat point.

Hodgdon 4895 @ 52 gr. shows 1679 fps in a 22" bbl.

E is the muzzle energy of bullet (in foot-pounds force)
v is the velocity of bullet (in feet per second)
m is the mass of bullet (in grains)

The formula is

E = m·v2/2

According to MD Smith's calculator --

http://www.reloadammo.com/footpound2.htm

Foot pounds energy = 3129.520 -- we'll round this off.

This is speculative, to prompt a discussion. I don't plan to hunt these puppies with a single-shot 45-70 Govt. Would never shoot one in the head, realizing it's "armored."

Just speculating here, you know, in America with a beer, and a reload book.

Brian Pearce shot two cape buffalo with one shot using a Marlin 1895 and (I think) a Corbon pencil point load at about 2000fps. Bull was about forty yards away in thick brush and took the bullet thru both shoulders...which killed him AND! the cow standing about ten feet behind him. Bullet was not recovered.
There is only one real problem with shooting dangerous game with a 45-70 in the Marlin or a rugger #1...the fact that it is an affront to the dignity of all of the AR forum elite who post that you need a monster of a cartridge and a double rifle or a Mauser classic chambered in a case with a minimum capacity of an ice cream scoop. Seriously! You see, it's just not done!, taking a $500 rifle with $2 a round american cartridge off on safari.
How positively middle class!

I would have no qualms about shooting anything with the proper bullet in a Marlin 45-70 or my 1886 Winchester.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

the fact that it is an affront to the dignity of all of the AR forum elite who post that you need a monster of a cartridge and a double rifle or a Mauser classic chambered in a case with a minimum capacity of an ice cream scoop. Seriously! You see, it's just not done!, taking a $500 rifle with $2 a round american cartridge off on safari.
How positively middle class!

I wasn't going to respond to this, as this argument has been done to death on this forum, however I just feel that I have to make the following comments as the realities of the argument are:

1. You can cleanly kill an unalerted Cape buffalo with a lot of non-approved cartridges, such as .45/70 or .30/06, provided you use adequate bullets and place your shot correctly - BUT, if you screw up the shot then you will have created a dangerous situation and will need a far more substantial rifle to sort it out. You may even have created a danger that someone else will pay dearly for - perhaps with their life!

2. African game laws specify the minimum calibre and power that can legally be used to hunt dangerous game, such as Cape buffalo. Why would anyone want to play ballistic "games" to try and make a cartridge, which does not make the legal limit, legal?

3. Finally, the argument has nothing to do, whatsoever, with status or class. There are plenty of hunters, venturing off to Africa, who use standard factory rifles and whose equipment, budget and lifestyle is most definitely "middle class". I myself am only middle class (and some would say not even that!) and have hunted Africa, on a number of occasions, with a beat-up old BRNO ZKK602 in .375H&H and never felt bothered by the "status" of my rifle. I might also mention that lots and lots of PHs use exactly the same rifle as their backup gun and are not ashamed to show their faces in camp! Forget the status comments, they are just nonesense.

Just for the record, before you get your silk thong bunched up in the crack of your fanny --

Speculating here on a load, a bullet, and muzzle energy. We hunt Roosevelt Elk locally with a 45-70 Govt. According to the books, it works on ALL North America game.

I use a 350 gr. or 400 gr. bullet for elk. I'm just speculating what a 500 gr. bullet, loaded on the "wildcat" end of things in a strong rifle might do for Cape Buff, etc.

Hodgdon Data Manual specs 52 gr. of 4895 and 1679 fps. I'm betting the Ruger No. 1 gets at least 10% beyond that load without any pressure signs.

Again . . . sitting here on the North American Coast, with a beer and some software, a box of Speer, 500 gr. African Grand Slam bullets.

If I were gonna do some "Cape Buff" out on the range, I'd have a backup, like a quad 50.

Nobody gets hurt.

My idea of "dangerous game" is pulling fur balls out of my cat's belly.

Has Carmelo returned?

I hate using this analogy, but guys kill them w/ a bow & arrow. If you really want to use a .45-70, even in a lever gun, go to it. I'm sure there are PHs that will take you. I would load 350gr NF to 2000fps followed by 400gr hard cast LFP. You don't think you need bigger rounds until you see a bull take 5-6 300gr/.375 & just get pissed. Then you hope your PH has a "fancy" 500NE double to finish things while you reload & clean up after yourself. I don't think 1700fps w/ a 500gr bullet would give me the penetration I would want but maybe 400gr @ 2000fps????

I remember Capstick saying he saw a Cape Buff take 19 "major caliber" hits in the "right place" and it still kept coming like a freight train.

Of course he was selling books and excitement was the vehicle. Never the less.......

I fully believe one can reach a point with power that he can no longer manage it and needs to back away to something he can manage as he's far better off with a well placed 375 than a poorly placed 470 NE.....however if one can't handle a 9.3 X 62 he really ought to ask if this game is really for him!

Buffalo Bore ammunition makes a 500 gr. FMJFN at 1600+ fps for the .45-70. I think that will duplicate a few of the turn-of-the-century 45 caliber NE double loadings and they were thought to be adequate for buffalo. Owning a .458 WIN and a .404 Jeffrey and a Marlin 1895 in .45-70, I think I would opt for the first two before I would use the .45-70 but, I think with the BB loading, it would do OK.

quote:

Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
The Marlin won't feed the "big/heavy bullets." Marlin 1895 tops out about 350 gr. -- and then in some bullets and not others because of OAL for the bullet cannalure, seating, etc.

I stopped reading right there. Beyond the major premise stated this was patently false.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
There is only one real problem with shooting dangerous game with a 45-70 in the Marlin or a rugger #1...the fact that it is an affront to the dignity of all of the AR forum elite who post that you need a monster of a cartridge and a double rifle or a Mauser classic chambered in a case with a minimum capacity of an ice cream scoop. Seriously! You see, it's just not done!, taking a $500 rifle with $2 a round american cartridge off on safari.
How positively middle class!
Rich
DRSS

Rich,
I truly believe there are a few as you describe with that attitude posting here. Maybe a few more than that!

That said, I also believe that the huge majority of those that hunt DG here and use the higher energy rifles are sincere and are offering their honest "non classist" advice same as I (or you) might advise someone on deer or elk rifles and cartridges. Should a newbie come here and ask about an elk rifle and after all the advice he run out and buy a 30-30 as he wanted in the first place.....well.....that's his problem!

When I ask what a "responsible" cartridge for dangerous game might be, I feel I'm a total idiot for not listening to those that have been there and done that. If most of them say approximately the same thing, I'm going to listen!!!

I'm a damn lucky guy as I've actually stood before elephants with a rifle in my hands.....No....I wasn't hunting them and didn't have a trophy fee paid for one but just to stand before such an amimal was scary.....I assure you that at that moment I truly understood Will's tag line....."there's no such thing as too much gun"!!!!!!

Sitting here in my easy chair drinking cappuchino and typing, I'm quite prone to intellectual choices......and I believe that I could take one of those things with a 7 X 57....just like Bell!!!! But I remember being there and the feeling of being so very small and "squishable".....that's when the intellectual part races for the door and I'm reaching for the biggest "son-of-a-bitch" I can find!!!!

It's not at all elitist....or classist....it's the greatest excitement a hunter can have!!!!!

I'd hope you have a chance to get a "Buff" with the Marlin....seriously.....But I'd also hope that we consider that a lot of folks that look to bigger rifles are sincere and offering words of wisdom far more than elitist advice.

Good hunting to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
Buffalo Bore ammunition makes a 500 gr. FMJFN at 1600+ fps for the .45-70. I think that will duplicate a few of the turn-of-the-century 45 caliber NE double loadings and they were thought to be adequate for buffalo. Owning a .458 WIN and a .404 Jeffrey and a Marlin 1895 in .45-70, I think I would opt for the first two before I would use the .45-70 but, I think with the BB loading, it would do OK.

While certainly a stout load, it isn't up to many of the older BPE rounds. While it will work, so will a 30-06 but like vapo said, once you have been there & seen the animlas up close, you will always think you need a bigger gun.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:

quote:

Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
The Marlin won't feed the "big/heavy bullets." Marlin 1895 tops out about 350 gr. -- and then in some bullets and not others because of OAL for the bullet cannalure, seating, etc.

I stopped reading right there. Beyond the major premise stated this was patently false.

My Marlin 1895 45-70 shoots Laser Cast 405 g. slugs at 1950 fps chronographed with ease on top of a generous load of 332. Not that the recoil is easy but the gun digests them readily. I classify that load as my moose load and have developed another load of 350 g. cast over Varget that pushes out pill at 1575 fps for an enjoyable load. To say that the Marlin 1895 will not shoot any bullet over 350 g. is revealing as to opinion but speakes nothing of EXPERIENCE. Sorry!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
45-70 Govt. for Cape Buffalo, seemingly it's been done. There's a post/thread in here with some guy and a Marlin 1895 lever action in 45-70 Govt.

The Marlin won't feed the "big/heavy bullets." Marlin 1895 tops out about 350 gr. -- and then in some bullets and not others because of OAL for the bullet cannalure, seating, etc.

But the Ruger No. 1 "feeds" anything that fits in the chamber. Heavy bullets need to be seated of the lands, but the Ruger No. 1 will manage a 500 gr. bullet with no problems.

Also, the Ruger No. 1 is designed to manage heavy calibers like the .375 H&H Mag, .416 Rigby, .458 Lott, .458 Win Mag, and can be chambered for .460 Weatherby Mag.

-- And so . . . 45-70 Govt. load for Cape Buffalo, in a Ruger No. 1.



Leupold VXIII 1.5 - 6x 32mm.

Load 500 gr. Speer "African Grand Slam" 0.458" jacketed, soft lead, flat point.

Hodgdon 4895 @ 52 gr. shows 1679 fps in a 22" bbl.

E is the muzzle energy of bullet (in foot-pounds force)
v is the velocity of bullet (in feet per second)
m is the mass of bullet (in grains)

The formula is

E = m·v2/2

According to MD Smith's calculator --

http://www.reloadammo.com/footpound2.htm

Foot pounds energy = 3129.520 -- we'll round this off.

This is speculative, to prompt a discussion. I don't plan to hunt these puppies with a single-shot 45-70 Govt. Would never shoot one in the head, realizing it's "armored."

Just speculating here, you know, in America with a beer, and a reload book.Go to http://www.garrettcartridges.com and read the info on the hunter who used a modified 1895 to take the big game animals in africa

525gr BTB Piledriver at 1750-1800+fps in an 1895 ought to do the trick!

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

This is one of those subjects that just won't die.

I don't think any of us care if you want to believe this is a rational caliber to use for Buff. You're perfectly welcome to do that.

Most of us probably think you're a bit daft, or at least haven't seen a Buff absorb the likes of a .416 Rigby or larger and keep going and continue to be dangerous for a while. I really don't think you'll have too much luck convincing those that have seen this.

But ... Hey! ... You have free will and you can spend it any way you want. The idea isn't so crazy you'll get a Darwin Award for trying it ... so have fun.

I prefer the .22 WMR, myself.

Just read Daktari Robertson's latest book on buffalo. The short answer is a resounding "NO." Sure it's been done but it's been done with a 22 as well. Doesn't make it right OR SMART.

Bottom line is I go with what the experts say and they ALL say an emphatic "NO." jorge

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
I prefer the .22 WMR, myself.

Hollow point or solid?

Hollow point, of course. I find the solid doesn't have as much stopping power in a crisis situation.

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:

good one.....love it!!!

45/70 Govt.

If I just had to use a 45/70 in a Ruger No1, I think I would load a 450gr North Fork Soft for my first shot, and a 450 North Fork Flat Point Solid for follow up shots.

Or just go to Garretts web site and use his ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
Buffalo Bore ammunition makes a 500 gr. FMJFN at 1600+ fps for the .45-70. I think that will duplicate a few of the turn-of-the-century 45 caliber NE double loadings and they were thought to be adequate for buffalo. Owning a .458 WIN and a .404 Jeffrey and a Marlin 1895 in .45-70, I think I would opt for the first two before I would use the .45-70 but, I think with the BB loading, it would do OK.

While certainly a stout load, it isn't up to many of the older BPE rounds. While it will work, so will a 30-06 but like vapo said, once you have been there & seen the animlas up close, you will always think you need a bigger gun.

Name a BPE load that would do 1600 fps with the sectional density of a 500 grain 45 caliber bullet?

There is a fellow over at Hunt america that did a water buffalo hunt.

Here's the Link

quote:

I don't think any of us care if you want to believe this is a rational caliber to use for Buff. You're perfectly welcome to do that.

How is hunting a dangerous animal supposed to be rational other than being a money maker for the various African governments?
If you want a thrill why not a FMJ in a Lee Enfield and no PH to back you up?

Remember the guy on Gunbroker last year who was selling the custom 444 Marlin as the choice of African Professional Hunters for Elephant?

Everyone has an opinion!

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
I prefer the .22 WMR, myself.

With proper shot placement you don't need one of those shoulder thumpin' magnums!

jackfish, ditto I shoot 500gr cast lead round nose bullets out of my marlin 1895g all the time.

they come out of the woodwork...

1. Is the 45-70, hotloaded in a Marlin, enough rifle to kill a cape buffalo? Yes.
2. Is it the optimal load/rifle for hunting cape buffalo? No, but neither is the 375H&H or anything else
under the 458Lott power level. Just ask Jack Lott.
3. Will I be hunting all by my lonesome there for cape buffalo? No, there will be somebody with a great big
DR or boltgun backing me up.

When you stop reading about guys killing cape buffalo and elephant with bows and arrows, then come tell me the hot rod 45-70 is insufficient. The actual MV of the 458WM is about 1950fps. The hot loaded 45-70 is less than 50fps behind it with the same bullet weights. My choice would be my 1886 Winchester for a 45-70, because I can seat the bullet out farther and have more powder space...

As I said Brian Pearce killed two cape buffalo with one shot, one behind the other at about 40 yards with his Marlin. Buffalo are not armor-plated, you put a 500gr CAST BULLET at even 1700fps impact velocity, right behind his eyeball sideways, out to 100 yards and it will come out the other side! So even if he ain't dead, he can't see to come get me. You guys read too much. Those old stories about solids bouncing off the horn bosses like popcorn are just that! I have shot over 100 old range bulls, 2000lbs and up!, with a 45LC loading a 300gr bullet about 1100fps at 10-15 yds...head shot and slugs recovered in their ass.

They let you hunt them with the 9,3x62 with 286gr bullets. That A**hole JD Jones kills them with pistols for gosh sakes!

This is a personal arguement that ain't going anywhere.

You guys are too into inflating the self and stroking the ego by deifying the prey and the difficulty of the harvest process.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

All i know about capes is that i dont want to hunt one w/ a single shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Brian Pearce shot two cape buffalo with one shot using a Marlin 1895 and (I think) a Corbon pencil point load at about 2000fps. Bull was about forty yards away in thick brush and took the bullet thru both shoulders...which killed him AND! the cow standing about ten feet behind him. Bullet was not recovered.
There is only one real problem with shooting dangerous game with a 45-70 in the Marlin or a rugger #1...the fact that it is an affront to the dignity of all of the AR forum elite who post that you need a monster of a cartridge and a double rifle or a Mauser classic chambered in a case with a minimum capacity of an ice cream scoop. Seriously! You see, it's just not done!, taking a $500 rifle with $2 a round american cartridge off on safari.
How positively middle class!

I would have no qualms about shooting anything with the proper bullet in a Marlin 45-70 or my 1886 Winchester.

Rich
DRSS

Rich:

I was reading the more recent thread on Garrett Cartridges and came across this link and your post in this thread. Very well said. Very well said indeed!

I would not hunt cape buffalo with a 45/70 because IT'S NOT LEGAL but for heaven's sakes guys, if one of Garrett's 540 grain "hammerheads" will shoot clean through a bison, I can't see any reason it wouldn't do the same thing to a buffalo and a bunch of guys here have already done it.

Dave

IIRC, old Finn Aagard once killed a Cape Buffalo with an 8X60S Mauser. I don't remember what the load was, but I believe it was some German commercial ammo. If the 8X60S will kill a Cape Buffalo, so will a .45/70, even if using either of these guns fall into the "stunt" category..... Kinda like the stunt of killing an elephant with a .44 Magnum handgun....

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I remember Capstick saying he saw a Cape Buff take 19 "major caliber" hits in the "right place" and it still kept coming like a freight train.

That's true. Capstick also told a story of when he personally took a Cape Buff with a spear. He had some good stories alright.

quote:

The Marlin won't feed the "big/heavy bullets." Marlin 1895 tops out about 350 gr. -- and then in some bullets and not others because of OAL for the bullet cannalure, seating, etc.

Whoever said that doesn't know much about the Marlin 1895 or the 45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:

quote:

The Marlin won't feed the "big/heavy bullets." Marlin 1895 tops out about 350 gr. -- and then in some bullets and not others because of OAL for the bullet cannalure, seating, etc.

Whoever said that doesn't know much about the Marlin 1895 or the 45-70.

I agree!!!

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

http://www.competitor-pistol.com/45-70%20page1.html

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
The Marlin won't feed the "big/heavy bullets." Marlin 1895 tops out about 350 gr. -- and then in some bullets and not others because of OAL for the bullet cannalure, seating, etc.

my reloads for the 45/70 are with 405 grain bullets, and they feed fine through my 1895...

this argument started a shitstorm earlier in the year, obviously, you are a and are just trying to up a bunch of shit.