YO!

A friend gave me an 8x56 (1908) Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle. This is not the rimmed cartridge. I would dearly love to take this fine old rifle out this fall and maybe take a deer with it. However, so far, I have not been able to find a single box of ammunition in all of Canada for it .. Who would have thought?

It can be purchased in the U.S. through Buffalo Arms (if I remember correctly) but I am unsure of the legalities of that for a Canadian. I shall check further.

I have also been checking on reloading (dies from the same outfit) ... I have been told that I can use 8x57 brass ... could that possibly be true ??? Any thoughts on this as I continue my research ... Thank you ...

I have a 1908 I got recently and have been making brass from 8x57. You will need a set of dies and they are available from CH4D. RCBS and Redding will make them for you as well. Mine were around $85 from CH4D. I have several sets of CH4D dies and am well pleased with them.

Mannlichers in 8x56, at least mine, are sensitive to cartridge length. You'll have to trim them after resizing. Mine is a bit on the tight side so I ended up getting a .463 Lee push through die to resize the base and web of the round. You may not have that issue. From what I've read and seen in some videos, some rifles will except the 8x57's slightly larger base and web without resizing. CH4D also sells a die to correct the 8x57 cases should you need to for your rifle.

I'm at work at a remote location and not near my loading notes but H4895 worked well with 200 grain bullets. I would look to it and RL15, 3031, and 4320 as powder options.

I did find 145 rounds of original Winchester ammo recently and it just arrived and is waiting for me when I get home. I'll be anxious to try it.

Check with Buffalo Arms. They may have a dealer in Canada or be able to tell you the legality of, and the process for getting ammo into Canada. Quality Cartridge also lists properly head stamped brass for the 8x56.

I just recently got some 8x56 M-S from Buffalo Arms. I have not shot it yet. They do chamber fine. I also got some 8x57 brass (PPU) for reloading. The PPU case head are on the minimum size for 8x57 Mauser so they should size to 8x56 fairly easy. They show the ammo in stock @ $59.50 per box of 20.
Buffalo Arms does ship to Canada.

Good luck!!

I have loaded 8mm Mannlicher Schoenauer for years with 8x57 Mauser dies.
I took the shell holder and thinned it to enable the case to be pushed further into the 8x57 FL die. (I use 8x57 Mauser cases to form them))

That pushes the shoulder back a bit and allows the case to chamber in the 8mm M/S. Of course the case needs a little trimming too.
One of my carbines accepts the base dia of most any 8mm Mauser brass I've used. The other needs them reduced a little and I simply spin them in the lathe and take a couple educated swipes with a file to reduce them.
Right now I have mostly Remington brand brass.

I push the shoulder back w/the 8mm Mauser FL die just far enough to chamber them with some resistance. Once fire formed, I neck size only with the same die down far enough so as not to disturb to shoulder at all..

The only thing modified is a common 30-06 case headsize shell holder. The 8mm Mauser dies are untouched.

My goodness, but you guys are interesting .... Thanks for all of the advice.

The best dies to thin are made by Lyman. They are very tough and very hard. You can shorten them up to 0.10". Have done it for a similar reason. Get a copy of cartridges of the world. In the back it has all the critical measurements for both cartridges.

First step is to check to see if the chamber has already been enlarged to 8x57 Mauser. That would be a pleasant surprise.

Mannlicher Schoenauer cartridges measure their length from the front of the rim. Mauser cartridges measure from the base of the case. 8x56MS is thus similar to (just a little skinnier than) the 8x57 Mauser.

Scruffy:

I picked up an M1908 "shooter" (broken and repaired stock, missing flip-up rear sight, empty compartments under the grip cap and butt plate) of pre-WWI vintage a couple of years ago. It is the British pattern with half stock, ~22" bbl, and single trigger. I lucked-in to a set of used RCBS dies from Ellwood Epps Ltd., a box and a half of WESTERN 200 gr. RNSP factory loads at a local gun show, and a 10-rd. box each of DWM 13g and RWS 13.1g RNSP loads at an antique store near Epps.

FYI, the 10 rds. of the WESTERN load that I chronographed averaged 2109 fps at 15'. The DWM and RWS loads were significantly hotter, 5 rds. of each averaging 2288 fps and 2314 fps, respectively.

Both R-P and W-W SUPER 8x57 brass will chamber in my rifle if trimmed to <2.220", without resizing. The old bulk Privi brass that I have (NNY headstamp) will not. Given the apparent absence of bulk 8x57 brass other than Privi, I picked up half a dozen boxes of older W-W 8x57 factory loads at local gun shows (at quite reasonable prices compared to new stuff!). I am now in the process of making 8x56 brass. I began by taking 20 R-P cases that I had on hand from an earlier project, trimming to 8x56 length, priming with WLR primers, and then pulling bullets from a box of the W-W ammo and transferring the powder and bullets to the R-P cases. Those W-W cases were then trimmed, and loaded with bullets and powder from another W-W box, and so on. Accuracy with these improvised loads is comparable to the 8x56 factory loads; velocity, as expected, is in the 32 Special range, 2027 fps for one lot and 2165 fps for another.

Over the years I have picked up several boxes and part boxes of Hornady 170 gr. RNSP bullets, so my limited reloading efforts to date have focused on these. So far I have only tested H4895, with WLR primers. I began with 40.0 gr. and worked up to 44.0 gr. I got the best accuracy at 41.0 gr., with 2280 fps and 15' energy comparable to the WESTERN factory loads. At 44.0 gr., velocity was 2527 fps, with 15' energy comparable to the RWS factory load, but accuracy had fallen off.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

Thank you... it does .... Be a simpler world if I could get some factory shells ... my ancient 8 mag is a wildcat and I have always reloaded for it, of course ... no problems )323 Hollis ... but that has been my favourite hunting rifle since about 1972 ... this fine old Mannlicher ... I will not be using it as much ..

There is an article on reloading this cartridge in an old issue of Handloader magazine. I believe the powder of choice then was IMR 3031.

You can buy the article from Wolfe publishing.

I bought some factory shells from Huntington's Reloader Specialties a few years ago. Not cheap. I believe I have 20 new cases. Will sell for less than I paid for them. PM if interested.

Okay. Mystery solved. Horneber is making new 8x56MS brass. You can order it directly from Reimer Johannsen. It costs 38.90 Euros per box of twenty. Five boxes will last you a lifetime. Both RCBS, and Redding sell loading dies.

8x56 MS Brass

The nominal base diameter on the 8x56 MS is .460"-.465". The 8x57/30-06/270 is .465"-.470". Of the three MS 1908 8x56's I have owned, two took resized 8x57 brass. The third rifle, with the receiver ring marked "Kal 8mm NORM" took the small diameter brass. I happened to have two boxes of Old Western Scrounger 8x56 MS ammo and they were the small base diameter of .460".
8x56 MS dies are sometimes available on ebay. For small base brass buy 7x64 brass, readily available on gunbroker.com for a reasonable price. Size and trim.
For loads, start with the low pressure listings for 8x57 Mauser, the ones @37000 psi or so.
Actually, my measurements show only, at most, a 2-3 grain of water difference in favor of the 8x57 over the 8x56 MS.
Powders - 4064, RL15, 748, and Varget work well.
Bullets - I like the 175 grain Sierra and the 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip.
Don't try to turn your prized old rifle into an 8mm Remington Magnum. Remember, 1000's of head of big game have been taken with the .32 Winchester Special and the .35 Remington.
Good luck and have fun.
Happy Independence Day to all.

I don't know the regulations about importing ammo to Canada but Glenn Anderson of Aardvark Labs in Florida often has 8x56 MS ammo.
I have worked with him on the possible need to use small base (.460") brass.

Oops. I just noticed that your abode is in Alberta. I don't know what the regulations are for importing brass. You might check with an importer/exporter in Edmonton, or Calgary.

Sadly, I can not import without all kinds of permits ... Nuts !!!

It may not be all that bad. Perhaps just an exercise in cutting several pieces of red tape. Perhaps I may come up to Alberta for waterfowl hunting in the fall of 2018. Hard to say what might fall out of my day pack. PM me in six months, so I can give you my Email address.

Thank you for the kind offer ...if you make it up to Alberta sometime ... I happen to know where there is a duck ...

An amigo phoned me yesterday and is bringing dies and 40 brass next Friday ... so I reckon that I am good to go ...

It is all good ...

Outstanding! Be careful to anneal between each loading, and those will last a lifetime. If I am looking for a duck, 20 cases will fall out of my pack.

I have now 40 brand new reformed Hornady brass ... 35 Whelen from my source who got them from Buffalo Arms .. I think ... I primed twenty this morning and have 180 grain Barnes and 220 grain Hornaldy on hand ... A wee bit more research on powder selection and I might be good to go by sundown on this hot windy Southern Alberta day ..

Cheers !!

I used 43 grains of 4064 in the 180 grain Barnes loaded brass. I fired one shot at the range and hit the bulls eye at 25 yards .. Primer is protruding ??? Grrr!!! Chambered easily and extracted easily .. the brass is reformed ..

Just got back from range ... 44 grains and 44.5 grains of 4064 solved the protruding primer but now the cases are separating ... Aaarghhhh ...and the shells do not fit in the rotary clip ??? I am an accident waiting to happen ... sigh ...

I told you what was wrong; your brass is too short for your chamber, head to shoulder, and that creates excessive headspace, which makes your primers back out, or your cases separate. Nothing will fix that except fire forming that brass to fit your chamber. Or getting longer brass and I don't mean overall length. Your new load did not solve the problem that caused the protruding primer; it just masks it.
As for fitting the rotary magazine, those are very picky. The shells do not fit into the rotary mag; are they too fat or too long? You might have the wrong rotor installed.

Yo! DPCD...

Thank you so much for your advice ....I shall certainly follow it ... Brass is too fat ... but seems to be the correct measurement .. according to specs ..

Not to worry.

Firstly the MS rifle magazine follower was very precisely made for each cartridge AND bullet. While a factory 8X56 round will sit on the spindle and load the magazine like butter, a 8X57 case or a different (pointed) bullet will not sit properly & will not load correctly.

Spire point bullets are a real pain to load and feed as the spindle was made for RN bullet (in my 6.5X54 & 9.5X57 rifles)

The first firing should be a mild load to get the brass to spec. This will prevent any further case separation.

You cannot avoid the 2 step process.

I hope you have a lot of fun.

I had a lot of fun restocking my 9.5X57MS take down rifle. Unfortunately it shoots very high 18 inches high at 100 meters with open sights.

I wish I could shoot a pig or deer with it.

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
Just got back from range ... 44 grains and 44.5 grains of 4064 solved the protruding primer but now the cases are separating ... Aaarghhhh ...and the shells do not fit in the rotary clip ??? I am an accident waiting to happen ... sigh ...

Here is your problem; I just realized you were using reformed 35 Whelen brass, which is about .472 in diameter. Your 8x56 brass is supposed to be about .465 OD, so ergo, they don't fit your rotor, which as I said, are very picky and a few thousandths will make all the difference. If it was a Mauser, it wouldn't care.
So, as long as you use the 30-06 based brass, you will never be able to use the magazine.

I finally found a gunsmith that would return my calls (?) and dropped off the rifle for a chamber cast. He phoned me a bit later to tell me that the chamber is 8x56 as I thought. I am dropping the dies and brass later on today so that he can check it all out ...

Right now my plans are to either turn the rifle into a lamp or just save me any further aggravation and just throw the nasty gun into the river and let it sleep with the fishes ...

Did you try any round nosed bullets? as i said - the rotary mag spool is specifically designed for caliber and bullet! That makes a BIG difference in feeding smoothly.

My 6.5X54MS handles 160 gr Hornady RN bullets very well. I slugged the bore and use the Carcano 0.268 bullets.

My 9.5X57MS handles Sierra RN bullets (I think 235 gr). All the SP bullets will load only 4 in the mag and they are very erratic in feeding. The odd round will jump out.

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
I finally found a gunsmith that would return my calls (?) and dropped off the rifle for a chamber cast. He phoned me a bit later to tell me that the chamber is 8x56 as I thought. I am dropping the dies and brass later on today so that he can check it all out ...

Right now my plans are to either turn the rifle into a lamp or just save me any further aggravation and just throw the nasty gun into the river and let it sleep with the fishes ...

The brass is too 'fat' to fit the mag spool. Actually that is not my main concern ... Hopefully I shall get my answers in the next day or two and will let you know. I sure appreciate your advice. I am learning ...

Wish you the very best mate. These are beautiful rifles and it would be a real waste to dump it.

BTW my 9.5X57MS is a take down and you can search for the restock project in the archives. I also got the cases from Buffalo arms & they are 35 Whelan brass formed and cut to size. Yes they are a bit "thick".

I then got 2 boxes of 9.3X57 which is very easy to find. The head space on the shoulder is the same but the body has more taper. So I just load and fire in the chamber to get perfect brass.