I have an 1892 Navy Arms(Uberti, Rossi ??) 45 Colt with a 24 inch Octagon barrel and was wondering for those with access to some Heavy loading for the 45 Colt if H110 @21 gr. under a cast 289 gr gas check bullet would be too much? Thanks for any info.

Steve E.........

I haven't tried it myself, but I don't think 21 would be too much. Hodgdon's max load for .44 mag 300 gr jacketed bullet is 19 grains, and a .45 case is a lot roomier than a .44. And a 92 action is a lot stronger than an S&W 29.

On the other hand, my old Speer manual (1987) gives a max .45 LC load of 20 gr H110 over a 250 gr SWC, for use in a Contender or Ruger only.

If I ever work up a deer rifle load for my .45 Rossi, I think I will follow the rule that H110 should not be reduced more than 10%, and start with 18 grains & work up from there. Not being an expert, I tend to be pretty cautious.

The same rifle is made in .454 Casull, which is loaded with 30 gr H110, but I don't know if those rifles are beefed up or not. Since they kick like a 6-lb .45-70, I will probably never try that one.

Good shooting.

I use 335 gr and 347 gr cast boolits in my Vaquero with 21.5 gr's of 296. I worked higher with no problems but groups start to open as the charge is reduced or increased.
You should be safe starting at 19 gr's of H110 and working up for the sweet spot.
Be sure to try Fed 150 primers. I use them in the .44 and .45 for the best accuracy. For some reason, mag primers always triple group size for me in these two calibers.
The Vaquero has shot one ragged hole at 50 yd's and several 1" groups at 75 yd's. I shot a deer facing away from me at 100 yd's. I aimed just above her back and hit her in the neck for an instant kill. I have taken many deer with it. The .45 is a great cartridge.
Try some 296 too, some guns like it better then H110. The burn rate is just enough different to make a difference.

I shoot 24 gr H110, 250 gr XTP, 1.6" OAL, heavy crimp into canalure.
This is 23,000 psi


In an old Uberti Iver Johnson Cattleman 1873 Colt clone, 6.5" barrel including cylinder, this is 1220 fps.





In a 16.25" barrel Winchester 1894 this is 1536 fps.





I believe that the 1892 is stronger than the 1894 and that a stainless version is good for the 65,000 psi 454 Casull and it's even higher proof loads.


What does it all mean?
The 289 gr w/gas check and 21 gr H110 is more like 21,000 psi, and is a walk in the park for an 1892.
Expect 1470 fps with the 24" barrel.

I tried a few rounds of the 21 gr of H110 in my rifle and the accuracy is fantastic, recoil is pretty mild(I guess from the heavy barrel). All my bullets are sized to .454, I got the ones I use from Mike at Mastercast.net
This is one fine bullet, can't wait to put one through a pig out here in the Socialist Republik of Kalifornia.(Just 3 more years till we are liberated and then we're outta here) The Air Force changed this from a 4 year tour to a 5 year tour but retirement comes in 3. Thanks for the info. Is there any data for Lil'Gun with the heavy bullets up around 1400 or 1500 fps?

Steve E.......

Lots of Lil'gun handgun data at hodgdon. I use a max load of it at ruger levels in my H&R 45 Colt Carbine, get over 1900fps in the 20" barrel shooting 250gr Speer GDHPs.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,107670.msg...4.html#msg1098312794

Better hurry and get that piggy! Kalifornia might soon become a lead free republik.

Unlike tnnek, I would NOT run 45colt +p loads out of anything made by the Italians . The 1892 copies are good rifles but I would stay w/ max. std. 45colt loads. 23K loads in an Uberti is an accident waiting to happen or at the least, beat the crap out of an already marginal revolver, JMO.

Fred,
Do you know anything I don't?
I have been doing calculations on revolvers and doing destructive tests.

I think I can now predict at what point a given revolver will split the cylinder.

I have never been able to predict when the cylinder would get loose. That seems to be a roll of the dice.

I have never been able to get that Uberti to shoot loose.


I have split the cylinder, broke the top strap, bent the frame, loosened the bolt-cylinder-frame slot fit, or pulled loose the break top latch on more than a dozen revolvers in destructive work ups to learn the real limit.

The real calculation on a cylinder stress would need a complicated formula from Roark's book. To a first order it is proportional to hoop stress on the thin spot on the output side of the cylinder.

Well tnekk, I've shot an Uberti loose using std. vel. 45colts. The cyl. stops peened over enough that a new cyl. had to be fitted. Granted, it was probably in excess of a whopping 1000rds but I would not want to hotrod one, that's what Rugers are for.
BTW, I don't think anyone can predict when a piece of steel is going to let go. You would have little knowledge of any defects in that particular piece of steel. So loading much past industry norms is bound to land you in trouble some day & while you are happy going for it, I don't think it wise to instruct others to use your loading practices. They may not have your "expertise".

Cylinder locks peened are not "shot loose" but from abuse. Cowboy action type shooting, fanning, quick draw, etc will destroy those notches in any revolver. Yanking back the hammer for every shot beats notches and lugs plus the frame opening for the lug. Anyone that does that type of shooting in competition has to expect to have work done every now and then.
My guns have been working guns starting with silhouette and now hunting. I never cock my guns fast or let anyone else do it. My SBH has just past 57,650 rounds and is as tight as the day I bought it. Can you imagine what would happen to the cylinder on a 45-70 BFR if it was cocked fast? That is one huge cylinder to stop.

I bought 6 police surplus Colt Police Positive revolvers for destructive tests, and have been able to blow them up, but never able to shoot them loose. The ones not blown up are still tight.

I have never been able to shoot loose a Uberti 1873 Colt clone.

But I have shot loose S&W J frames and N frames with ease.

And that looseness was not predicable or repeatable.

Brass failure and chamber splitting is more repeatable.

Semi auto pistols all seem to be stronger than the brass, except for CZ52s, the only pistol described as "strong" in load books.

What does it all mean?
The forces on the bolt in a revolver are largely a function of the position of the cylinder relative to the forcing cone. That tiny error makes itself bigger with each shot. Hot loads speed this up, but are not really the cause.

I agree that a very tight cylinder lock with throats out of line with the bore can put force on the notches. Most revolvers have some play to allow the bullet to pull the cylinder over for alignment. But this will only go so far and stop and you wind up with the same play that should have been built in to start with. This will take many, many shots because the bullet or boolit will deform quicker then the steel will peen because the lug is in close contact with the face of the notch, not a running start like spinning the cylinder.
The sixguns I have seen had huge burrs built up at the back edge of the notches from speed cocking. They had double the play that the gun was built with. I have even seen slight bends in the locking lug and the holes for them peened. It is amazing how much punishment those little parts can take though, before giving up.
You might shoot some guns loose for several reasons. Hot loads in guns with soft steel recoil shields and cylinders where the recoil pounds these parts together. Rare in modern guns. Such hot loads that the frame or crane is stretched. Lack of lubrication on these parts. I use STP on the ratchet, pin and front of the cylinder. To shoot them dry is asking for wear.
Another thing that bothers me is when someone slams or flips the cylinder closed on a fine double action. I have had many S&W 29's, plus .357's and put hundreds of thousands of shots through them. I have yet to shoot one loose. Fine pieces of machinery and should be treated as such. Showing off with a gun will ruin it. Speed competition is another thing though, takes money and repairs. Thats built in!

You are rpobably right bfr, but if the steel is that soft, what is tgoing on inside the chamber & the rest of the lock works? Sorry, I have little faith in the Italian copies. I have seen RBH split throats & crack top straps from repeated hot loads (met. sil. shooting). My point is overloads in a good pistol will drasticly reduce the life of the pistol. In marginal pistol, bad things can & have happened.

I have a Ruger Blackhawk in 45Colt, I have fired one round. Piece of junk.

I have a beat up 30 year old Uberti 1873 Colt clone in 45Colt that I love to shoot. Great gun.

I have an S&W 29-4 and 25-2 that are fun to shoot too, but not as good as the Uberti.

Everyone [2 guys] I have let shoot my Uberti has gone out and bought one just like it, only new looking.

Fred, you know some of those silhouette shooters are nuts! I watched an older guy with a S&W go up to a post after every five shots and beat the ejector rod on it for several minutes to get his cases out.
As for the Blackhawk .45, the throats are most likely too small and need reamed. Common with Ruger .45's. Mine went from 6" 25 yd groups to 1" 75 yd groups by lapping the throats.

bf, I must be lucky. I have several RBH & all will stay in 2" @ 25yds handheld, mostly lead bullets though. It is the main problem w/ Ruger rev.

Thanks for the info guy's. It looks like that the 21 gr of H110 is the best load for the 289/299 gr. cast bullets. You guys should try them, I got them from Mike at Mastercast.net
I have no connection to this company other than trying some of his bullets and found out they work great.

Steve E.........

quote:

Originally posted by Steve E.:
You guys should try them, I got them from Mike at Mastercast.com
Steve E.........

Then you should be sure to give the correct URL so we can get them!! It's mastercast.net

http://www.mastercast.net/

Thanks, most people would have thought to try .net if they couldn't find it at .com but then again I'm sure there would be some that would pitch a fit because they couldn't figure it out. Thanks again.

Steve E.......

Ummm, that probably won't work either, his email on his contact page is mike@mastercast.net

http://www.mastercast.net/contact.htm

Fred, what I was thinking about with softer steel were the old guns. They didn't have the steel we have today and just going a little hot without getting dangerous can beat the steel. Yes it is hard on the chambers too but I have seen old Colts with ratchet marks on the recoil shield because the guy wanted faster loads. How he got away with it, I don't know. I have seen things that kind of turn your hair white. I won't tell the load put through a new Vaquero .45 while the guy was looking for pressure signs with 335 gr LBT's. Your jaw would break on your bench! (He never had a flat primer or sticky case either.) A tribute to the Ruger's strength and I do mean a TRIBUTE. I will only say it was a HEAVY .475 load. I lost more hair then I needed to. I straightened him out in a hurry.
I will never cease to be amazed at how much some guns can take, yet another will just go to pieces with one shot.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Unlike tnnek, I would NOT run 45colt +p loads out of anything made by the Italians . The 1892 copies are good rifles but I would stay w/ max. std. 45colt loads. 23K loads in an Uberti is an accident waiting to happen or at the least, beat the crap out of an already marginal revolver, JMO.

I agree. To much for this gun.

wrongtarget
That's all fine and dandy but I posted his correct e-mail or at least the one that he and I have been conversing on. I'll go back and take that one out as he might not want the general public to use that one.
Have fun everybody and safe shooting.

Steve E......