I'm at the end of my rope with a rifle--I've tried everything I can think of to get it to shoot and can't tighten things down below about a 4 in group, when it does better the next group with that load is just as awful as the others. I really need suggestions as I now have alot tied up in the rifle and hate to sell it.
Its a W70 30-06 Classic. It's been glass bedded and trigger work done. I've tried factory loads, 150,165 ballistic tips, 180 partitions, 165, 180 Barnes X's, AA3100, H4831 SC, IMR 4350, RL19, etc. The crown looks OK, Burris Fullfield scope with tight mounts. How would you know if the scope was the culprit? What else could I look for. I reload for 6 other rifles with very good results so I really don't think that my technique there is the issue. Any help would be great.

I would have to handle the rifle to be sure what to do next but I would switch scopes with a know shooter and check the bases while the mounts are off.

Next I would pull and push on the barrel at the forend checking for free floating or how much forened pressure it has. Remember to move the barrel sideways at the forend also.

It usually always is the bedding but look at the crown with a magnafying glass again.

You might get a couple of books from the library on gunsmithing and read them also but even then they may not mention something. For instance I knew that the trigger guard can press on a magazine box that's too high. I looked at it but it seems not close enough. Then Belk, a smith who posts here, said to file that down if it's contacting there. I went back to my M70 and checked again and it was touching! While your at it scrub the barrel in the thoat area with a brush. Once you get the barrel clean put the Barnes bullets on a high place that takes a ladder to reach them and shoot only Sierra's until it's grouping well. Don't panic, put the rifle aside if you have to and come back to it another time while you think about it.

If there ever was a specific task where experiance counts it's this one!

I'm curious when you rifle was built..I had a M70 Classic in 300 win mag and accuracy went to hell quickly from new. Called Win and found that that period in '98 barrels had suspect metallurgy..the barrels would actually throw chips from the surface of the bore. If your in the same year Id call Win and see if your affected. BTW, they insisted I not shoot it and send the rifle back to them immediately, they would replace it for free. The replacement shoots about 1MOA so I'm happy.

Besides swapping scopes as Don Martin suggests, I'd do two other things.

First you didn't mention if you have contact with barrel/forearm. That's the very next thing I would look at. If you do have contact and it isn't full floated, I'd do that. You can always reverse that with bedding material on the forearm.

After the scope swap, if that didn't cure the problem, I would shoot a group with the action screws as normal. That should be with about 40 in/lb on the front and rear screws and just tight enough to hold in the middle. Then, after shooting a group, loosen the two rear screws completely and shoot another group. If the POI changes, you have a bedding problem. Hope this helps.

I went through the same ordeal and tried everything as you did with a .338 Win Mag Win 70. As a last resort I rebarrelled with a Lothar Walther bbl. and the lemon instantly became a peach. However and considering the poor excuse for a bbl. Winchester seems to use, I've made up my mind. This is my first and last Win 70 (actually, I wanted it as it was about the only classic action I didn't own). !

As already mentioned, you need to change the scope, just to be sure that isn't the problem. If you don't have a spare scope, you should go to Walmart and get a 6X Bushnell for around 40 dollars. It should serve as a decent understudy.

Use 57.5 grains of either H or IMR 4350 with a good 165 grain bullet. Don't use WLR primers, they are inconsistent in my experience, and I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Use Rem 9 1/2's or CCI's or Federal primers.

You can take a spare scope to the range, and before swapping it, try a five shot group with the 165 grain bullet/57.5 grain 4350 load, and see how things go. If that load doesn't turn in MOA or close to it, then change the scope.

If the rifle, with the replacement scope, won't shoot this handload well, you'll need to check a few other things.

By this point in the game, I'm sure your crown is in good condition. As another member mentioned, you should make sure that the barrel, if free-floated, doesn't have debris under it.

Remove the rifle's bolt, and degrease the rear bearing surface of the bolt lugs. Mark both rear faces of the bolt lug with a black marker, and insert an empty case into the chamber. Carefully remove the bolt, and look for bearing marks in the black marker. Both bolt lugs should show evidence of smearing the black marker off of the lug faces. If only one lug is bearing, you'll need to have the rifle's bolt trued.

I trued my own on a Remington 700 ADL I have by putting some lapping compound on the lug that *was* touching, and re-chambering a brass case and working the bolt up and down several times which resulted in the removal of about .002" from the long lug. Don't over-do this, however. By the way, gunsmiths claim this isn't a satisfactory way to accomplish bolt truing, but it darned sure worked for me...

Best of luck, and let us know what you find...

Dan Newberry
green 788

[ 11-01-2002, 02:03: Message edited by: green 788 ]

Thanks everyone--I'll start working through your suggestions. First, does anyone have experience with a scope with internal problems? My bases and rings are tight. What would the symptoms be? I occasionally get strung groups but things are mostly unpredictable. Any other "on gun" tests of the scope I can try--I hate to pull one of another rifle or buy a junker if I don't have to--that may be unavoidable, however. The barrell is completely free, I'll check the action screws and lug contact tonight. I'll call win on the manufacturing date also. Thanks again for the suggestions.

You can place the rifle on the rest, with the rear of the stock supported, and with the chamber empty, squeeze off a shot while watching the crosshairs on the target. Often times, if there is a problem with the scope, you'll notice that the crosshairs will jump around when the rifle dry fires.

If it does do this, remove the scope, and shake it hard, end to end, while listening for a loose lens. Even though the Burris is a quality scope, it may still have a defect. If this is the case, they'll repair it for no charge, of course. And just because you can't hear a loose part that doesn't mean that the scope is okay. If you end up removing the scope, replace it with another one just to see if things improve.

Don't forget to try the 57.5 grain 4350/165 grain bullet load. Any decent 30-06 should shoot this load fairly to extremely well.

Let us know what you find...

Dan

In addition to trying a different scope, I would have the barrel recrowned as well. Just because it looks OK doesn't mean it is! I have a 6mm/.284 that had a decent looking crown, but did not shoot as well as I thought it should. Had a target crown put on it, and the groups shrink to 1/4th the size they had been....

Re: "First, does anyone have experience with a scope with internal problems?"

I've had many and I use mostly premium scopes in the Burris, Leupold and B&L, the latter being the only one on which I've not seen problems. I've had them where the field of view is dark, but the big problem is usually that the reticle moves and may do so erratically.

With a free floated barrel you might try putting pressure on it with a stack of business cards in the fore arm to determine if that barrel requires it. Some do. Don't overlook shooting groups with loose rear action screw.

I flat do not trust variable scopes. Like automatic transmissions, they are one more thing to go wrong.

The other guys have pretty well covered the other things that can be wrong, ailthough I might shorten the action screws .10 inch on general principles, but the scope is the likely cause.

I'm not sure how well Burris backs their products, but I had a 20 year old Leupold 24x scope that I thought was causing me problems. I sent it back to the factory, and although they didn't find any major problems, they totally reconditioned it free and included a complete report on what they did. It's much clearer now and helped me to eliminate that as the problem. If you have the time and absolutely want to keep that scope, you may want to give it a try.

One small thing that you may already be aware of is to not overtighten the middle action screw (front edge of trigger guard). Just snug it enough so the floor plate closes freely. Overtightening can spring the stock and place a lot of stress on the action.

If you provided some info on the shapes your bad groups assume more specifics might be forthcoming.

One small thing that you may already be aware of is to not overtighten the middle action screw (front edge of trigger guard). Just snug it enough so the floor plate closes freely. Overtightening can spring the stock and place a lot of stress on the action.

If you provided some info on the shapes your bad groups assume more specifics might be forthcoming.
" Stocker

Excellent points, all...

Dan

The groups are erratic. I have had both vertical and horizontal 4-5in strings but, on looking through my range book (I often sketch groups) most times the groups are just a large cluster--The funny thing is that I rarely actually get two subsequent shots to fall near each other. I know of the heat problems associated with the whip barrel on this rifle and try to let it cool between shots but this is a hunting rig and I'd like not to have to worry about follow ups. Thanks for all the help--just got back from central MT from my antelope hunt (very frustrating, most of the district is private land and the critters have figured out where there is no hunting pressure--I hunted my guts out and only saw one doe in an area that I could hunt) Quit on the goats the third day and took to deer hunting and killed a beautiful Whitetail buck. Sooo...With the elk in the freezer and the deer on the way, back to running the trap line and working with this stinking rifle, I will figure this one out if it kills me. Thanks again guys.

Load the 57.5 grain IMR 4350, (or H4350) load behind a good 165 grain bullet and see if things are still crappy.

If so, remove the scope and replace it with a known good one.

And do check the action screws, and as Stocker said, make sure that center screw is only snug, not tight enough to apply tension to the action.

We're all interested now, so please keep us informed ...

Dan Newberry
green 788