I have just started reloading and am using the Speer manual, I received with my RCBS kit. My first reloads were for my .22-250. I was using Dan Newberry’s OCW procedure and had loaded 10 different loads using Hornady 50 gn. V-Max bullets and IMR 4064 powder. My highest two loads were 36.2 and 36.6 grains of 4064. The Speer manual listed 37.0 grains as a maximum for a 50 gn. bullet.

When I tested the two highest loads, I noticed that extraction was tighter then normal. I inspected the fired cases and found no signs of overpressure.

Later I went to the Hornady site and printed out their loading data for the .22-250, (which I should have done first), and noticed that their maximum charge is 35.9 grains. That is a full 1.1 grain less then the Speers data. I also purchased a Sierra manual and they list 36.2 grains as their maximum for a 50 gn. bullet.

I have also looked at Speer’s loading data for the Win. 308 because I plan on reloading a Sierra MK, 168 gn. HPBT for my M14A2. I am aware of the added steps when reloading for a semi-automatic and the important of both chamber and port pressures. Everything I read, says not to use a powder that is too slow or excessive port pressure can damage your rifle. As a result, I plan to use my IMR 4064 since it has similar burn characteristics to the military powder.

However, when you reference the Speers manual, they list some rather slow powders, like Re15 specifically for gas-operated semi-automatic match rifles and in every case their maximum powder loads for a 168 gn. HPBT are higher then Sierra’s loading data.

So are loads in the Speer manual too high?

The max. load on IMR's site for the 22-250 with a 50 gr bullet and IMR 4064 is 35.0 grs. Also the load in Nosler #5 is 34.5 grs.

I suppose hard extraction is a maximum load! Is this initial bolt lift or actual extraction when the bolt is turned to engage the extraction cam?

Savage 99,

The tightness was on initial bolt lift. Actual extraction was OK.

Art

Art,

You seem to know enough to make your own mind up for sure.

That load, in your rifle, is just over "maximum" to me.

Uh, NO!!!!! These days, most manual loads are NOT even near HIGH!! SOME even describe them as "wimpy"!! Please note that merely changing bullet makes/styles, even if of exactly the same weight, can make a big difference in performance. For example, I just finished developing a load for 175-grain bullets in a 7mm Rem. Mag. using Re 22. I found one load that gave 3050 FPS with the 175 grain Nosler Partition bullet, 2930 with the Sierra 175 PSPBT, and only 2860 with the 175-grain Remington Corelokt. Cases, powder charge, primers, etc., were identical with all three brands of bullets, but I'd be surprised if the pressures weren't a lot lower with both Sierra's and Remington's bullets!

So, obviously, the fact that one manufacturer's loads use more powder with a bullet of a given weight than some other maker's loads use with a bullet of the same weight means nothing at all.

Please see below!!

[ 10-07-2003, 19:14: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

I got a "Speer 12" with my Rockchucker kit 5 years ago.
That was my first manual.
I now have ~50 load books and consider "Speer 12" and "Speer 13" to be the worst load books in my collection.

The loads are listed in order of velocity for a given caliber and bullet, but are not really taken at the same pressure. [Don't try to divine principals of load development from reading scrambled data]

The start load velocities are faked and are the product of a bogus formula.

I prefer the Sierra manual for rifles and the free data from powder manufacturers for pistols.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

Art,

Sounds like to me, two things are causing that.

How deep are you seating the bullet? Are you seating it to the max OAL, or less?

If seating it to max, OAL the second reason for the high pressure signs of a tight bolt lift is that your rifle has a tight chamber. I don't think you listed the brand of rifle or if it was a custom barrel job or not.

The load information listed is not high. It can be pushed higher, but I don't recommend doing so, unless you know what you are doing, and have some reason to do so.

A lot of times, people load up a rifle hot to get just a little more velocity to make it a little flatter shooting. If you compare the trajectory charts in most manuals, the difference of the trajectory with an increase of 200 fps, is really a half an inch or less at 300 yds.

The other reason people load over max listing is to get some more footpounds of energy. I use to think so, like every one else, until I started using my head. Foot pounds don't kill game, it is SHOT PLACEMENT, with a competent bullet for the job. Not always, but in most rifles, a little less velocity is usually more accurate than the higher velocity loads.

As a final note, if it is not your seating depth being to short, If your chamber is tight: I always have a gunsmith ream my chamber out to allow me to seat a bullet out and take full advantage of the magazine length. This lowers pressure and increases accuracy in my rifles.

Good luck with it.


[ 10-07-2003, 19:41: Message edited by: seafire/ B17G ]

seafire/ B17G,

I am shooting a stock CZ550 Laminate Varminter. My COL was 2.350, which is the standard length for the .22-250.

It turns out my final load, (34 gn. IMR 4064), gave me a 5 shot group of .221 at 100 yards. So I don't guess I mess with the chamber right now.



Art

ArtD,

Welcome to the forum.

In our experience, each rifle is a law unto itself.

Most will probably be able to digest the heaviest load in any modern reloading manual. Some will not even handle the starting loads, and some will take a few grains over published maximum.

This is a fact we have come to know after loading for a lot of different rifles from different manufacturers.

What I suggest is you use the Speer manual as a guide - and go with the load that gives you the best accuracy.

Good luck.

Saeed is correct, that is why it is not only wise but nessesary to start with lesser loads and work up.

The data in the Speer manual is higher for that particular cartridge/powder than others because that is the way that it tested out in THEIR test rifle. You will find that the same is true of other manuals and loads.

Hard bolt lift is usually one of the first signs of excessive pressure. You should also learn to "read a primer" for pressure if you dont already know how. In my experience the two usually coincide with one another fairly regularly although measuring the case head is deemed as being more accurate.

IMR 4064 and 50 grain V-Maxes........best most consistant and accurate load I could find in my 22-250 also.I stopped going up at 36.5 and got best accuracy at 34-36 grains.

woods

My favorite reply to pressure issues: YOU CAN'T TELL WITHOUT A CHRONOGRAPH. If your velocities are higher than those listed in the load manual for max, using the same components, you are over MAX.

All chronographs do not clock the same shots at the same velocities. Reading variations can be 200 fps or more, if you shoot the same shot over two different chronos at the same time.

If you get a velocity reading 200 fps over that shown by a loading manual for the same exact load in the exact same model rifle, you have a bunch of different possibilities.

1. Your chronograph may read "faster" than the one used by the company writing/selling the manual.

2. Your barrel may be a "fast" barrel. That is, for whatever combo of reasons, your barrel may deliver more velocity with that combo...or not.
On the "not" side, I once had a new Sako .25-06 that simply wouldn't give velocites over 2,850 fps to 100 gr. bullets. That didn't mean the pressures were low! The bolt stuck fast, even at that velocity level.

3. Bore condition may vary. First few shots from a freshly cleaned and oiled barrel often record as faster than later ones in the same shooting session, with the same load from the same gun.

4. Perhaps your pressure really IS higher.

5. Perhaps the significance of some other variable is being indicated.

The only way to tell high or low pressures for sure is with a pressure measuring device, not with a bullet speed clocking device. Using a chrono to tell pressures is akin to using a speedometer to tell gas mileage. There may be a relation, but my little Porsche will get better mileage at 80 MPH than some identical size engines in other cars do at 60 MPH.

AC

Golly, My Speer # 1 and #6 Handloaders Manuals have a max. load for a 50 grain bullet at 39grains of 4064. The #8 calls for 36.5 grains of 4064 and the #10 manual calls for 37 grains of 4064.The #1 & #6 were written at a time when most of us were froming 22 varmint cases (22-250) from 250-3000 cases.It was still a wildcat. There was a difference. To stay focused ,however, some of the Speer loadings through the years were thought to be on the high side.
All that aside,the intent of published MAX loads isn't for anyone to accept these loads as a gauranteed safe load in their individual fire arm.You may consider a published load max or whimpy, mox nix.You are expected to use that data in an inteligent manner and WORK UP A SAFE LOAD FOR YOUR RIFLE in this case.If you haven't used a proposed load before START LOW. Roger

The Speer manuals used to be based on reality and were good. They peaked in hotness in Speer 8.

"Speer 3" 1959 44 mag 240 gr. JSPooooooo23.0 gr. 2400 1564 fps
"Speer 6" 1964 44 mag 240 gr. JSPooooooo23.0 gr. 2400 1564 fps
"Speer 7" 1966 44 mag 240 gr. JSPooooooo23.0 gr. 2400 1564 fps
"Speer 8" 1970 44 mag 240 gr. JSPooooooo24.0 gr. 2400 1574 fps
"Speer 9" 1974 44 mag 240 gr. JSPoooooo19.5 gr. 2400 1344 fps
"Speer 10" 1979 44 mag 240 gr. JSP&MSP 22.2 gr. 2400 1392 fps.
"Speer 11" 1987 44 mag 240 gr. JSP&MSP 22.2 gr. 2400 1452 fps
"Speer 12" 1994 44 mag 240 gr. JSP&MSP 17.7 gr. 2400 1271 fps
"Speer 13" 1998 44 mag 240 gr. JSP&MSP 21.0 gr. 2400 1434 fps

In Speer 13 the powders I have found to be best, with the best bullet weight are missing:
.222, 55 gr. IMR4895 there
.223 55 gr. IMR4895 there
22-250 55 gr IMR4895 missing
.243 100 gr. IMR4895 missing
25 acp 50 gr. Power Pistol missing
257 Roberts AI 72 gr. IMR 4985 missing
6.5x55mm 140 gr. IMR4895 missing
32 acp 60 gr. Power Pistol missing
32sw 71 gr. lead, Power Pistol missing
32 S&W long 85 gr. LIL'GUN missing
7.62x25mm 110 gr. Power Pistol missing
7.62x51mm 168 gr. IMR4895 there
7.5 Swiss 168 gr. IMR4895 missing
30-06 168 gr. IMR4895 there
303 Sav 168 gr. iMR4895 missing
303 Brit 180 gr. IMR4895 there
7.62x54R 180 gr. IMR 4895 there
8x57mm 200 gr. IMR4895 missing
9x19mm 147 gr. Power Pistol there
9x23mm 147 gr. Power Pistol missing
357 Sig 124 gr. Power Pistol missing
38 sp 158 gr. LIL'GUN missing
357 mag 158 gr. LIL'GUN missing
38sw 158 gr. Power Pistol missing
40sw 200 gr. 800X missing
10 mm 200 gr. 800X missing
44 mag 240 gr. H110 there
45 acp 230 gr. Power Pistol there
45 Colt 300 gr. Unique missing
45/70 405 gr. IMR4895 missing

Art:

Nice rifle, and with a group like that, who cares what the velocity is ( except to calculate a trajectory). Time to button her up and take her home.

Looks like that barrels has found its diet for its useful life time in my book.

Happiness is one big hole for a lot of shots on one target.

Careful comment on the Speer #8 loading manual. yes, some of the loads were really hot. What happened was they were using the copper crusher method of pressure testing and used the wrong tarage table when measuring the crushed copper slugs. This made the loads appear safe when in fact, they were not. If memory serves, one of the cartridges affected most was the 30-06. It is not know if the supplier of the targage table and crusher slugs was at fault or if Speer screwed up, but the point is moot. The loads were overpressure.
Paul B.