Just starting to reload and have been away from the computer awhile. What is special about Blue Dot powder? Why do you use less? Thanks Guys. Chain

Are you refering to Blue Dot in rifle cartridges?
You use less because if you used a lot it would blow up (seriously)
It is a pistol/shotgun powder and has a burn rate faster than typical rifle powders. If you used as much of it as rifle powder then it would generate excessive pressure.

I don't know what's so special about it in rifles or why they use it.
I use it in my 9mm and 357mag and think its rather dirty.

I just noticed alot of recent posts about it and was curios. I am pretty green, I thought it was some super powder. I actually haven't even reloaded a cartridge yet still getting a bench together. Thanks for the info. Chain

I dont know why someone would use Blue dot in a rifle case. A accidental double charge will fit in the case . Load it, shoot it, blow yourself up. freakin stupid.

Like driveing your car with only 3 tires to save money by not wearing out the 4 tire. Briliant idea!!

gsp,,there's a good chance you could double charge a good few different cartridges with the recommended powder and charge for said round and be none the wiser if you wasn't paying attention.If you can't devote your full attention to the task,,,,do something else than try to reload ammo.Blue dot is very versatile when used by experienced and seasoned reloaders,,and I can't blame them on trying to keep some jingle in thier pockets.For unlisted apps.,,,find an experienced mentor to guide you,,,Clay

Chain,

It is used in reduced rifle loads and most commonly for very reduced or "squib" loads.

Shotgun and some pistol powders are more bulky than normal rifle powders, so a given weight takes up more space in the case and they also ignite more easily and also work more efficiently at very low pressures.

As an example I use to years ago use 28 grains Of Dupont 700X with 400 grain Speer flat nose bullets in the 460 Wby. Did right on 1300 f/s and was very accurate and no case fillers were needed. It would not be possbibl to make such a load with normal rifle powders.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by claybuster:
gsp,,there's a good chance you could double charge a good few different cartridges with the recommended powder and charge for said round and be none the wiser if you wasn't paying attention.If you can't devote your full attention to the task,,,,do something else than try to reload ammo.Blue dot is very versatile when used by experienced and seasoned reloaders,,and I can't blame them on trying to keep some jingle in thier pockets.For unlisted apps.,,,find an experienced mentor to guide you,,,Clay

Claybuster,
Ive been reloading safely Shotgun and Rifle for 35 years. Ive probably reloaded and forgot more load combinations than you even have a clue of. Besides I wasnt talking to you, Chain stated he was "green to reloading" and from the Blue Dot post thought it was a "super powder". There was a post of someone that almost blew his face off and almost lost his eye experimenting with blue dot loads in a rifle.
Trying to save a few cents on powder?? If you are that cheap maybe you should do something else than reload.

GSP7

It is not a saving money issue.

Reduced loads (for whatever reason) produce a different type of feeling or shooting. In that I include loading a big case back to duplicate the ballistics of full pressure loads in a smaller case on the same bore size.

For example, a 460 Wby with 85 grains of 4064 and 500 Hornady shoots very accurately in an accurate 460 and does just over 2000 f/s...so equals full power loads in a 458...but it is just nice to shoot. It is hard to explain but in some ways it is like cruising around in a bg V8 manual compared to a small 4 cyclinder at the same speed.

Working with reduced loads is also like a separate part of reloading, similar I suppose to those who play with cast bullets.

But I would not disagree with you on the potential for danger. Personally, when I settle on a reduced load I make up a dipper to avoid the possibility of hang ups in a powder measure.

As to economy it is like relaoding itself in that reloading means the shooter usually shoots more and spends more on guns etc.

Reduced loading simply adds some more expenses

Mike

Blue Dot turns my fire breathing 4300fps .17 remington cartridge into a tame .17hmr like round with 7.0grs of blue dot.

Mike375 , I understand what your saying in your post.

All good For a experienced reloader, that has studyed all the powders and burn rates. Has studyed and knows shotgun powders,rifle powders,bore sizes,shotgun gauge sizes in relationship to powder characteristics,pressure etc etc.

Not a good idea for some one that doesnt know what blue dot is or red dot is.

Like a young man that knows nothing about Engines . Goes to the drag races,then comes home and Pours methonal alcohol into his gas tank on his honda accord, hooks up a big bottle of nitros oxide then cant figure out why his valves and pistons a melted .

Wanna know something about blue dot and load data?
Send me an email. I have posted all of the load info about it that I have personally tested, complete with the starting points and grain by grain velocity up to what is maximum safe for reliable brass life.

I havd gone over that amount to know what point you don't gain anything while sacrificing safety.

As for the guy that blew up a Contender or whatever it was, if one read the entire thread, he himself said he did not blame the mishap on the powder.

I have worked with Blue Dot enough to know, that one can't blame it on the powder. If a mishap occurred, it was operator error.

I have only blown up one gun in my reloading, and that was with H 414. The reason it blew up was that, I did not set the scale correctly and put in 57 grains of powder, instead of the 47 I looking for. So does that mean I should spread a warning label for H 414?

About any powder, has blown up something.

If someone is short on common sense then he should be buying his ammo at walmart instead of playing with explosives.

None of this stuff is FOOL proof. So if one is a fool, don't touch it!

Cheers
seafire

Gsp,,Sorry,,I was'nt making a personal attack upon you,,as far as experience,,you got me by 10 years,,,and I have learned a few lessons by experience,But Seafire confirmed my first statements,,Even charges listed for the round,do'nt fill the case to the capacity to where a double or an overage could be easily recognised,,more so with pistol rounds,,but rifle just the same.And to the 'newbees' don't let your experimental rounds sit in your car trunk,,or truck tool box to cook all day before you go to the range after work,,,Keep your ammo cool.Clay

I tried Blue dot too.
And liked it.

Please read Seafires posts carefully and understand the usage of this powder before loading it.
DO NOT allow even a remote chance of a double charge ! Be really anal about this, your safety depends on it.
If you are unsure of the steps you need to take to ensure only a single charge in each case, ask around . The answers may vary considerably depending on who you ask. But, they all may be right.


Travis F.

Exactly what TBF said, be super careful where a double charge can occur. In playing with Blue Dot in my Nagant, there's been more than one occasion where distracted at the bench, I've dumped the whole case load and started again. No visual inspection etc... just straight back and start again. In my case the use of Blue Dot has been worth the hassle...
Cheers...
Con

quote:

I dont know why someone would use Blue dot in a rifle case. A accidental double charge will fit in the case . Load it, shoot it, blow yourself up.

My load is 12 gr of Blue Dot in the .223 Rem. I've intentionally tried to double-charge it to address this problem when I first started using reduced loads, and have concluded that, with this particular load, this is not a concern for me. A double charge (24 gr) will overflow the case.

Blue dot is not a wonder powder, but it does work very well for reduced rifle loads. Many shooters and reloaders don't understand the concept of a reduced load. They say, why load your 300 win mag down to 30-30 levels, when you can just buy a 30-30? There are a variety of reasons to download, just as there are a variety of ways to do it safely. Those of us that really enjoy shooting, especially some of the bigger guns, find that reduced loads open up a whole new realm. If that doesn't interest you, fine, just don't pee in the wheaties of those who enjoy shooting reduced loads.

There are alot of stupid mistakes a handloader can make. Reduced loads and blue dot powder do not embue a reloader with an extra dose of stupidity. Just as loading for 30 odd years doesn't protect one from random acts of stupidity. Each and every round should be loaded with care, wether you are using a fast powder that fills about 1/2 the case, or you're trying to eak out the last bit of powder with a compressed load of something else. Just as everytime you handle a firearm, you need to follow the rules of firearm safety. If you have enough powder to get the bullet out the barrel, it is potentially dangerous.

I agree with Paul & Seafire.

Just a thought to keep in mind when getting reloading advice from ANY old-timer, including me...

There is a hell of a difference between 40 years of loading experience, and 6 months of loading experience 80 times. Try to evaluate which you are hearing when you get loading advice from others.

Best wishes to all,

Alberta Canuck

I'm new to reloading so maybe I'm not understanding something.

Say for instance I want to shoot reduced 308Win loads out of my T3.
I normally load Varget, but do have a can of Blue Dot for my 9mm and 357mag. What benefits are there for using the dirtier Blue Dot over a very light charge of Varget?

Is a reduced load with Blue Dot or similar powders more consistent than a very light load of rifle powder?

quote:

Originally posted by Fumbler:
I'm new to reloading so maybe I'm not understanding something.

Say for instance I want to shoot reduced 308Win loads out of my T3.
I normally load Varget, but do have a can of Blue Dot for my 9mm and 357mag. What benefits are there for using the dirtier Blue Dot over a very light charge of Varget?

Is a reduced load with Blue Dot or similar powders more consistent than a very light load of rifle powder?

Fumbler:

The answer is positively! I think you will find it will not really be a dirty powder in a rifle barrel. Because it is a fast powder, it will normally burn all the powder in about the first 12 to 14 inches in your barrel.

A load with Blue Dot will be a lot more accurate with a 300 Mag loaded down to 308 specs, than trying to accomplish that with Varget or even H 4895. Can't give you the techical reasons why, but if I could they would probably bore most of us anyway. I can just tell you from experience it works.

The key to understand also though is just because Blue Dot, THAT DOES NOT TRANSLATE TO THE SECOND PART OF YOUR QUESTION " OR SIMILAR POWDERS"......

Just because Blue Dot does a good job, it does not mean, Red Dot or Green Dot will. ( in fact they won't). If you don't know what you are doing, and want to try downloading some for your 300 Mag, gather info in some of the Cast Bullet shooting manuals. Lyman's is an excellent one for that.

I can tell you what works from developing loads for Blue Dot. Another powder I have worked with that I highly recommend is IMR's SR 4759 ( NOT 4756!)

If you are new to reloading, the faster the powders burn rate the closer tolerances you have in load data, when you push upper limits.

If you are going to attempt this at all, consult with someone who has experience in this. It can be rewarding, but all powders are explosives, so NO ONE should go swimming in the deep end of the pool so to speak unless they know how to swim.

I can put it to you like this tho. IN a 300 Mag, I can reduce recoil 75 %, and still have a 150 ro 165 grain bullet traveling at 2200 to 2300 fps.

Zeroed, 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, any spiter bullet will be dead on at 200 yds.

Any deer is 18 inches from his back bone to his chest bone. Half of that distance is 9 inches.
With a rifle zeroed at 3.5 inches at 100 yds, your bullet is never higher than 3.5 inches above your aim, and it is dead on at 200 yds. It will be 3.5 inches low at about 230 yds or so.

So even at 2250 fps MV shooting at a deer with a 150 or 165 grain bullet, your point blank range is at about 230 yds, or so.

90 % of all deer are shot at under 100 yds.

Some guys think they need a 500 yd load, capable of taking an Elk at 500 yds, to be able to kill a deer at 50 to 100 yds. Others of us, really don't need all that extra punch and recoil.

The reduction in recoil will also assist the "average" shooter to place his shot more carefully in the right spot.

So that is why working with Blue Dot offers some benefits to some of us.

We all make our own choices. But some days, we really don't need all that extra punch or recoil, to get the job done.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Thanks for the reply.

If you have the data, could you tell us how much more accurate a slow Blue Dot 300 winmag load is compared to a similar velocity load using a typical 300 winmag powder (same bullet and case of course).

quote:

Originally posted by Fumbler:
Thanks for the reply.

If you have the data, could you tell us how much more accurate a slow Blue Dot 300 winmag load is compared to a similar velocity load using a typical 300 winmag powder (same bullet and case of course).

That is kind of a hard question as I do not know what you consider a "typical" 300 Mag powder.
Also downloading powders in a 300 Mag, is not recommended with slower powders like 4350 or 4831. H 380, RL 15, W 748, Varget, H 4895, IMR 4064, 4895 and 3031 don't download well in a 300 Mag. Some will argue the H 4895 loads, but blue dot will shoot circles around that powder for accuracy.

All I can tell you, is give me a velocity you'd like to shoot say a 165 grain bullet at, and if it is within blue dot safe pressure specs, I can give you a load. However, if you do a search on Blue Dot and 300 Win Mag, you will notice I have posted load data on that cartridge.

Cheers
seafire

Fumbler,

Further to Seafires reply you divide reduced loads into two broad groups.

The first would be in the areas of loading a 378 Wby back to 375 H&H, a 300 Win back to 308 etc.

The second is where you come down much further. For example, loading 300 Win/Wby back to 30/30 and all the way down to 30 M1 Carbine.

Lets take bring 180 grainers in the 300 Win back to what a 308 will do with top loads and 180 grainers.

For that sort of job powder like 3031 might be a choice. In a 300 Win and 180 grain bullet I would guess that something like 57 to 60 grains of 3031 might be a maximum load and at such loads would be around 30/06 ballistics if the 30/06 is loaded to the saame pressure. So we might try 50 grains and from there check accuracy/velocity.

4198 might be at maximum with about 50 grains and 180 grain bullets in 300 Win. But we don't want full pressure loads. So 4198 would probably not let us get full 308 ballistics except at high pressure. However, we could try 40 grains and work around there for what be 300 Savage or a bit over a 30/30

But as we come down further we will start to run into consistency and ignition problems with "rifle" powders so we need to switch to the shotgun/pistol powders which ignite more easily, are bulkier and also work much more efficiently at low pressures.

Just like conventional reloading there are general statements you can make but in individual cases those generalities might not hold up.

Ass to your question of accuracy, with reduced loads you can usually get then to equal the potential of the rifle. In fact in rifles whith crappy bedding and shitty barrels reduced loads will oftem give greater accuracy than your normal loads.

As an accuracy example, a load I have used in the 375 H&H a great deal is 39 grains of H4227 and Fed 210 and Hornady 220 grain flat nose. it does around 2100 f/s. Out of a 375 with a number 5 match barrel, barrel is .72" at the muzzle, I have shot a 20 shot group that was right on an inch with that load. Now keep in mind that the 220 Hornady flat nose is designed for the 375 Big Bore Model 94 so it is not exactly one of Hornadys match bullets

HOWEVER, let's say I wanted to bring that load down further then I would have to move to shotgun type powders. A couple of reasons. Down at the 36 grain level the H4227 load is not shooting. At 33 grains the pressure is so low that the cases are covered in soot and a bullet is a press fit back in the neck of a fired case.

By the way, what is often the case is that when loading back to match the full ballistics of a smaller case with top loads, such as 300 Win/Wby back to 308, the general blast and recoil seems a softer thing than the small case loaded flat out.

One final point. Lets say we want and must have 30/06 ballistics. Someone like me would buy the 300 Win and load for 30/06 ballistics and make some gains. Less strain because of less pressure. I also have a lot more flexibility available to me if I only want 2800 with 180 grainers from a 300 Win. I increase my chances of getting a desired accuracy level with a specific bullet because I have so many more powders and loads available since I only need 2800 from the 300 Win.

One last comment on the accuracy of reduced loads. The top cast bullet shooters who do benchrest but are using cast bullets and usually in 308 are shooting 1/2" 10 shot groups at 100 yards and are holding an inch at 200 yards for 10 shot groups.

Mike

More good info

In rifles (more generalization), are reduced loads of "typical" powders (ie Varget, 4320, reloader 15, etc in 308) not recommended because of potential kabooms (like people have claimed in handguns) or just because of the erratic pressure curves and position sensativity?

Fumbler,

The only reason you would not use powders such as 4320, Varget, Re 15 etc for reduced loads in the 308 is because those powders are at burn rates that would fit into top loads with heavier bullets in the 308.

Reduced loads with those powders in the 308 would be something like the starting loads in reloading manuals. As you start to go down lower pressure will get very low and accuracy will be likely to be poor.

Think of this way. Let's take the 30/06, 300 Win, 300 Ultra and 30/378.

Now let's say we have a maximum load in the 30/06 which is 60 grains of powder "xyz" and 180 grain bullets. That will give us about 2800 f/s.

If we take the 300 Win and select a "abc" powder that would produce top pressure, that is, equal to the pressure we had in the 30/06 and it took 60 grains of this "abc" powder to give top pressure, then our velocity would be about 2800.

If we then had powders available that would give the top pressure with 60 grains in the 300 Ultra and 60 grains in the 30/378, then we would also get about 2800 f/s

In the above examples, as we moved from the 30/06 up through to the 30/378, the powder we would need to develop top pressure at a charge of 60 grains would get faster as we moved up in case capacity. In the 30/06 we would be using something in the 4350 to 4831 area with 180 grainers. In a 30/378 we would probably be using something like 4227 to get our top pressure with 60 grains.

In the case of the 30/378, some imaginary poweder is developing top pressure with 60 grains and is giving 2800 f/s. In other words this powder has turned the 30/378 into a 30/06.

If we reduce the load of this imaginary powder to 55 grains then we will get about 2500 f/s and of course low pressure. In fact we would have similar velocity and pressure to the 30/06 if we reduced its 60 grain load to 55 grains.

So basically the faster powders bring us down a level and then we work at the level. Now just as a powder like 4350 and 130 grain bullets has a range it work over between a top load and lower loading where accuracy holds up, the same situation applies when using a powder that is faster than normal for the calibre.

If we take the 300 Winchester then a powder around 3031 would bring it into the 30/06. In other words maximum loads with 3031 in the 300 Win would be in the 55 to 60 grain range.

Having said all of that there are a couple of practical considerations and one of these is where the shotgun powders come in.

In the case of the 30/378 with an imaginary powder that will develop top pressure with 60 grains and 180 grain bullets....we may have a problem with hang fires because of the very big case capacity. Thus with "rifle" powders we might not be able to get this low in the 30/378 and would thus be forced to operate at higher level with a slower powder or go to a lower level where we can use the shotgun powders.

So in practice with the 30/378 we might be limited to loading it down to 300 Winchester ballistics or a bit less and then the next stage down might be 30/30 level or less. On the other hand the smaller 300 Rem Ultra might be just enough smaller than the 30/378 that we can come down all the way to 30 M1 Carbine power without having a big gap in the middle that is hangfire territory.

Warning Note: When working with very big cases like the big Wbys or the Rem Ultras one needs to know or be able to work out what the theoretical maximum load would be "rifle" powders that might only take up 50% to 70% of the case capacity.

The reason is that you can have hang fires that are so small you can't notice them. However, the hang fire reduces pressure. Lets say this s happening at 65 grains. The pressure looks mild so the reloader keeps increasing the load but the small hangfires that the reloader can't noticed keep the pressure signs low. This situation might/will allow the reloader to exceed the theoretical maximum load but as the load increases and less air space exists in the case the next shot does not suffer from a very small hangfire and so develops full pressure and with a load that is well over maximum.

It is quite simple to establish theoretical maximums when going to powders much faster than normal. For example, powders in the Varget/4064/4320 etc will develop peak pressure with charges that weigh about 80% of what would be used for Re 22/4831. The 3031 type powder will be about 95% of the Varget/4064 and the 4198s will be about 85% of the 3031 charges.

So let's jump back to the 30/378 and take 150 grain bullets. With the Re 22/4831 burn rate top loads would be around 105 grains. So with Varget/4064 a top load would be about 85 grains, that is, about 80% of the Re 22 or 4831 charge.

So if we worked up a Varget/4064 load in the 30/378 and 150 grain bullets and we were getting very low pressure signs at say 80 grains, then we would be gettin extremely small hangfires that are lowering the pressure below what pressure we would have if ignition was correct. So we would bail out.

As a generality and for reasons which completely escape me, when using powders that are much faster than normal for the calibre, peak accuracy seems to most often occur at quite low pressure loadings. In other words if you were to work up loads with 4198 in the 270 or 30/06 then your peak accuracy would be likely to be at pressures well below the pressures you have with your peak accuracy loads with the powders that are normal for the calibre.

The very small hang fire problem is not a problem in cases up to the normal belted magnums such as 300 Win and 375 H&H UNLESS you use ball powders. Using ball powders that are faster than normal for the calibre for reduced loads is a total NO NO.'

For example, Win 748 is in the same general burn rate area as Varget/4064. In something like the 7mm Remington Varget/4064 will work perfectly for bringing a 7mm Rem down to the 270 Win power level or even 7 X 57 or 7-08. BUT, Win 748 is not suitable and will likely give very small hangfires that cause lower pressures than what should be showing.

Mike

Mike,

I bet you and I setting over a couple of beers and discussing Downloads, would probably be labeled as a real pair of geeks to the rest of the people at the bar!

I sure hope Fumbler and some of the others followed all the information that you put forth. Excellent explanations.

I think a lot of guys get into handloading to get higher velocities out of cartridges. Then when they get older and wiser, If they finally learn the flexibility offered in downloads, they really enjoy shooting and handloading even more.

Thanks for putting forth all of that info. I even noticed, in the Lyman Cast Bullet manual they actually list loads with Blue Dot in there.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

seafire

You are probaby right, we might sound a bit crazy.

Many years ago Du Pont used to give maximum loads for all their powders for all the calibres. So they would have maximum load for 4227 and 140 grain in 264 Winchester. They use to list the other extreme as well with a case full of 4350 in the 222, or 444 Marlin etc.

I am 56 and started reloading at about age 15 with my father (we started together) and I started fiddling with reduced loads in my early 20s. What got me going was a combination of two things. One was an interest in owning and using big bores. The other thing was that for different reasons I have always preferred a situation with multi rifles but only one or at most two different calibres.

I have a little reduced project coming up soon which really illustrates the value of them.

A shooting mate of mine has in recent times moved into the zone of different rifle configurations in the same calibre and in his case it is 264 Winchester. He has four 264 Winchesters on Rem 700 actions, Jewell triggers, HS Precision stocks and barrel contours ranging from the average factory sorting barrel contour up through to the Heavy Varmint benchrest taper.

In Australia we do a lot of spotlight shooting and the kangaroo is the main target. Ranges are usually under 150 yards. We also shoot on private property and a property my mate goes to does not like the noise of the 264 of a night time.

So I will work up a load for him with a light bullet and be looking at something in the mid 30 grains at lower pressure and 2500 to 2800 f/s second. Most of the calibres with big case capacities on small bores and with good barrels tend to put loads close together so we will probably get him a load that he can use of a night with same rifle and scope he would use during the day.

This will save him the money of buying something like a 223 and another scope plus the fiddling about with a new rifle, dies etc. In addition those small low pressure 264 loads will produce less "crack" on the ears for a night's shooting than will the 223 with full loads.

Its years since I have seen the old Lyman loading manual but they use to list a range of shotgun type powders for about all calibres.

Over the years I have had a few people take up reduced loading once they have had the chance to fire a rifle with reduced loads.

What go you started with reduced loads?

Mike

Chain,

Welcome to the forum.

In simple terms, one can use ANY powder to load ANY cartridge.

But, one can only get optimum performance with certain powders in any specific cartridge and bullet combination.

Let us take the 308 Winchester as an example.

You can load it with Bullseye - which is one of the fastest powders one can get - if you wish, but you have to use only a few grains, and you will only get relatively low velocity before you generate very high pressure that will blow the rifle.

On the other extreme, you can cram as much H5010 in it as you wish, and you will never get the desired velocity nor excessive pressure in it.

We use a number of pistol and shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads, but one should be very careful doing it. As mistakes can be made by double charging the case, in which case a catastrophic failure of the rifle might occur.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
I think a lot of guys get into handloading to get higher velocities out of cartridges. Then when they get older and wiser, ...

Damn, I haven't seen playing with reduced loads from that point of view! It seems there is still hope I ever grow up...

Ah DUK,

YOU are wiser than you give yourself credit for.

As far as "Older", well the real sign of happiness and success in life is never having to grow up, regardless of your age.

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
I think a lot of guys get into handloading to get higher velocities out of cartridges. Then when they get older and wiser, ...

Damn, I haven't seen playing with reduced loads from that point of view! It seems there is still hope I ever grow up...

I agree with you;except"getting older"it is a good one ,take care...

quote:

Originally posted by P47D:
As far as "Older", well the real sign of happiness and success in life is never having to grow up, regardless of your age.

cheers
seafire

Well said. It seems that it makes sense to try hard not to loose some of the naivety and enthusiasm of our youth.

OTOH, those eternal twens we see in the media who do not know how to age with style and dignity very much make fools out of themselves, too.

This has been an informative post and I thank yall for explaining it better.

I see it's not really a safety issue with downloading rifle powders a lot and that the faster powders give bteer accuracy/more consistent ignition for the slower loads.