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We follow a routine where we try to eliminate all variables in our reloads. Some might say we go to extremes. We get our brass in bulk. Every case is sized. Primer pocket uniformed. Flash hole deburred Trimmed to uniform length. Weighed. We separate them into 0.5 a grain or 1 grain weight per bag of 100. After some discussion, we decided to try something else, and see what the results might be. We have several makes of brass collected from the shooting range. Some are once fired, others might have been reloaded a couple of times. These are the makes. RWS NORMA LAPUA TOPSHOT S&B The plan is to do nothing to these, except clean them, resize them, and shoot them. No trimming No weighing No deburring the flash hole and primer pockets. These are in 308 Winchester, and the rifle is a Sako TRG. Bullets are going to be BERGERS, of different weights. I will try several powders. RWS primers. I have tried VVN135 and VVN140. And a very pleasant surprise, how accurate these shot!! I will post my results once done. | ||
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I for one look forward to your results  Pete | |||
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I've found over the years that unless you have a very accurate platform your shooting ( benchrest rifle) you will likely not have any noticeable difference between prepped and sorted brass brass to just resized and loaded brass. Most of the prep work is just to make the reloader feel better about their work. Just my opinion, I still do a lot of prep just no trimming or weighting brass | |||
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You are probably right. Point is trying to eliminate all variables. Make everything as close to each other as possible. Come to think of it, it is wonder we get the accuracy we do. You have a piece of copper. Accelerate it from standstill to thousands kilometers an hour, then push it through a hole too small for it. Spin it at several thousands RPM. You fire 5 of these and expect them to hit the point at 100 yards???!  | |||
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All cases will stretch, but it can take a number of firings. And it seems that case shape and chamber pressure play roles in that. I’ve always figured that if I’m going to measure them anyway, I might as well skip doing that and just run them through the trimmer. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Cases expand in different directions and different ratios. I have had some actually get shorter after firing. I am assuming certain parts of the body were thinner, and the high pressure of firing evens this out. Not sure though, but I know it happens. So far every group shot is very good!!? | |||
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Saeed, I have seen some of your cases. Some of them looked like creations out of science fiction. I especially scratched my head at the one with two shoulders that had a neck diameter larger than the case body!  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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You know, when you have unconstrained brain waves, things happen that normal people like you can never understand! Got a message asking how this was going. I have set aside a number of bullet weights to be tested here, and see how they shoot in this particular rifle. Bullets were all Berger Match. 150 165 175 190 210 I have the 190 and 210 to shoot. Once that is done I will post my results. | |||
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The only variable I have found that shrinks RIFLE groups is getting the bullet seated perfectly straight (minimizing bullet runout). With off-the-shelf rifles, even making case necks concentric hasn't improved accuracy. Then, there are those that trim Pistol cases for consistency and all they do is increase head space gap and make loads more inaccurate. | |||
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Cases do not stretch from firing unless there is some feature of the rifle which allows it (ie, rear locking, like a Lee Enfield. In a front locking rifle, with no head clearance, the brass will not stretch. It will extrude forward from sizing, however. Regards, Bill | |||
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My test is finished and here are the results. No explanation is needed, as you can see the results. This rifle seems to not be very particular to heavy bullets. RWS 5333 primers were used.                           | |||
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I wonder about a load that evidences .5 grain sensitivity, which many do, how much is that affected by environmental factors??? I suppose that is why serious benchrest shooters read the targets and often load onsight. | |||
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Good shooting rifle. It seems that the first two loads with every powder shot better than the last heavier charges. | |||
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I have had rifle that shot best at the lower charges. Others seem to like it the other way. | |||
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Bill, it depends on the rifle, brass and load. If brass didn’t stretch on firing, we wouldn’t have to resize it. Resizing is another thing and does cause its own sometimes substantial stretching for sure. Saeed, this is interesting and substantiates other test results I have read. I believe there are empirical data out there indicating that, when starting with components from reputable makers, these things are of little importance (except to competitive bench rest shooters): Sorting and trimming cases Match quality (i.e., micrometer) dies Measuring case wall thickness Cleaning primer pockets Primer pocket uniforming Reaming flash holes Brand of primer Weighing each bullet Powder type Weighing each powder charge But we handloaders still do most of them. Too much time on our hands! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I disagree. When you look at the SAAMI specs and drawings it is clear that the chamber / reamer dimensions are larger than max case dimensions. Therefore, a fired case MUST be sized at least in the neck in order to load a bullet that will be secure and safe. Michael Robinson said
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Some pretty-good groups there, Saeed, and they do seem to show certain component weights work better than others. Thinking back to your initial intent, though, it would be interesting to know how much going through the anal concerns of dedicated target shooters might improve the best ones further (not that I would start following their practices, 1MOA more than suits my needs). | |||
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Saeed, Did you mix brass within any of the groups shot? or was each group shot with one brand of brass? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Each group was shot with the same make of brass. Funny enough, I did weigh a few cases just to get an idea of how much different each make weighs. The surprising thing was they were not that far different. I think it all boils down to the rifle too. I get people coming here and shooting literally hundreds of rounds trying to get a particular rifle to shoot half inch groups. It never does. Anytime anyone shoots a standard hunting rifle and loading hunting ammo and it consistently shoots 1 inch groups with a payload I tell them to stick to it. Back to being finicky about brass. I do have a 6 mm PPC that my friend Dwight Scott built for me - Dwight built many rifles for some of the best bench rest shooters, and they have won many prizes. He sent me 220 Russian brass with it, and a set of dies. With Bill Brawand bench rest bullets, I cannot measure some groups if I don’t mess up. Try as much as I could, all my measurements go down to 0.0xyz! Which really boils down to what I can see in the bullet holes. I tried with magnification and the results as the same. Manufacturers now hold everything to close tolerances, I am thinking because of new machines. European made rifles, mostly in Germany, Austria and Finland, produced now, are extremely accurate, with factory ammo. Reminds me of the days of trying to make a Remington 700 ADL shoot well. Or even worse a BSA from the UK. | |||
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Perhaps, instead of stretch, I should have said "lengthen". Brass does, of course, stretch in all directions from firing unless the chamber is so close so as to prevent it. However, unless the rifle has significant head clearance, or the action springs enough to allow the case the stretch, it does not lengthen. Now, if the load is heavy enough and the breech thrust great enough, even a strong, front-locking action will deflect a little bit. After a few shots, the brass will show some stretch to reflect this. In one test, I fired a 30/06 case, over and over, in a Model 54 Winchester. The case was not sized at all but was simply reprimed, loaded with 57 grains of 4350, and a 180 grain bullet set on top of the powder. I fired it until it had lengthened .001". It took 13 shots. I also measured the change with a case which was neck sized only, and one which was full length sized. The neck sized case would lengthen a couple thou with each sizing, then shorten again when fired. after about four cycles it would gain.001 in length. After 12 shots, the case had lengthened about .004" and a split had developed in the neck (annealing would have prevented this). A full length-sized case lengthened .006 to .008 each time it was sized, shortened up again when fired but had a net gain of about .003 with each firing. I quit after four shots with it because I saw no point in continuing and I would have had to trim. Regards, Bill. | |||
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