over max loads

26 December 2004, 11:42

hivelosity

over max loads

how many reloaders do we have that load over max loads.
The reason i ask i see a lot of reloading data offered up
That is over max. mainly in the 243win.
I have been reloding and shooting the 243 for many years and know for a fact that overloding and hot rodding this cartrage will only lead to a rifle with excessive head space, set back lugs and in 2 cases that i have experienced with friends, is a completely destroyed rifle both remington 700.
most reloding manuals and powder mfg list 52K cup and 60K psi. 20yrs ago or so, I destroyed a 243 win Mauser shooting
60gr bullets over 49grs. imr 4350
just trying to find out what the average reloder thinks about this.

26 December 2004, 12:25

stubblejumper

Quote:

That is over max.

Overmax according to who?There is so much variation in data in the various loading manuals that a load may be over max according to one book but under max according to another.All that matters is that the load is safe in the gun that it is fired in.

26 December 2004, 15:53

Ku-dude

I shoot many loads that are considered above the maximum in cartridges that I reload; however, none of them are .243 Win, and most of them are very old cartridges the data for which is constrained by older weaker actions. Loading above the max published in manuals is not for beginners, and should only be attempted by those who fully understand the many issues that come into play. Then it should be approached very carefully. For modern cartridges like the .243, it can only lead to trouble. Ku-dude

26 December 2004, 15:57

kraky

It would seem to me that if you are running loads that are destroying a gun you'd get some "feedback" from those loads. Things like sticky extraction, loose primer pockets, extractor marks. But, I have read articles from people with strain gauge testing equipment that have said they've run some lots of brass in some guns well over saami pressure and not seen these signs. I guess I'm no where near an expert in this field and probably shouldn't be posting about the matter. Except I will say that I agree that the .243 is a caliber that has extreme variations in data from book to book. Another caliber is the 7mm mag.
Iguess all we can do is use a balanced average of data and a good chronograph along with the above signs to keep ourselves out of trouble unless we have access to ballistic lab equipment.

26 December 2004, 16:05

Savage99

I don't load hot but some do. In fact, as far as I know, the benchrest crowd loads really hot. I have had a 243 for a long time and when 26" M 70 barrel was new I got 3600 fps out of 75 gr bullets.

What I did not really get my time and money's worth out of was the .224" magnum I dreamed up. There was no data for it. I did have internal programs and they worked but I just could not bring myself to load it up really hot. The result of this is that I have no velocities to brag about and the worn out barrel is up on nails in the ceiling joists. On the other hand I still have my two eyes and ten fingers.

I go by the manuals. Some of my loads are one grain over max but that's it. A hundred years from now it won't matter.

26 December 2004, 16:10

vapodog

stubblejumper

Quote:

Overmax according to who?There is so much variation in data in the various loading manuals that a load may be over max according to one book but under max according to another.All that matters is that the load is safe in the gun that it is fired in.

If we look at the threads that have been the longest and most debated we find that "pressure related threads" are truly king on this forum. In a sense the heat treating threads are related closely in that they're an "ability to control pressure" discussion. In all this discussion it's clear that there's a following of reloaders that are convinced that the reloading manuals are overly conservative and that they're not satisfied until they're some amount beyond the published data and their velocities are some amount beyond the factory published data. (this assumption is truly warrented however in cases like the 7MM Mauser and others)

It's totally irrelevant that there's absolutely no difference between a 100 grain .243 bullet at 3,100'/sec and the same bullet at 3,200'/sec......this contingent among us just has to be there......as long as this is the case there'll always be those among us that have turned their guns to worthless scrap and risked their arms and eyes needlessly.

26 December 2004, 16:30

JustC

Accuracy comes first,..if it comes at a higher speed, cool,.if not, that's OK too.

26 December 2004, 16:36

IRONWORKER

I've been handloading for30 years.I load over max frequently,but not blindly.I watch for pressure signs.If the bolt is just a little tough to open I stop!!!

< !--color--> period.If I get a shinny[real shinny] mark on the head I stop.I once blew a primer in a 25-06 years ago when IMR 7828 came out.I feel justified in doing it (Above Max) cause the difference in loading manuels is so extreeeeeeeemmmmmmmm.

26 December 2004, 17:56

RMiller

I like to find max for the individual rifle I am working with.

I use the highest published data I can find as a guide. Usually steves reloading pages.

27 December 2004, 03:59

hivelosity

"Overmax according to who?" refering to published data.
I use the 243 because this is where i have the most experience with, over max loads.

the loads were safe in these guns up to a point where they failed.
"It would seem to me that if you are running loads that are destroying a gun you'd get some "feedback" from those loads."

"if we look at the threads that have been the longest and most debated we find that "pressure related threads" are truly king on this forum"
i agree! i reread some of the post and what i see is a problem to determine what hi pressure really is.

27 December 2004, 06:00

Savage99

Quote:

"pressure related threads" are truly king on this forum"
i agree! i reread some of the post and what i see is a problem to determine what hi pressure really is.

=======================================================

I would think that there is ageement that if an action won't open, the primer falls out or worse that the load is too hot.

I don't see agreement on much else that for instance the strain gage is the last word or case head expansion.

A new one to me is that a gun will fail from metal fatigue after being loaded hot. Now I don't load hot but others do and we get little feedback on this. Of course those who experiance blow ups may not be with us.

27 December 2004, 19:04

Clark

A picture of three sequential rounds of .243 fired with 40 gr IMR4895 and 100gr, each getting more pressure.

It took me a while to figure out why the pressure increased. I now think it was the cheap Adams and Bennet barrel was so rough, the copper fouling did it. I didn't figure it out until a friend of a friend blew up his 17 Rem with copper fouling. That 243 of mine will foul inaccurate with copper in 5 rounds, and fouls high pressure in 40 rounds.

This is a true story. A man who earns his living being a pro gun debater and is very smart, said of my load, "That load is beyond the load books. You are crazy and dangerous."

I then showed him an old load book with that load in it. He said, "Oh... you're ok then."

This sort of load book fundamentalism is rampant on the internet. No one ever seems to scream indignantly, "1980 Cars are not designed to go more than 55 miles per hour!", yet people die every day doing it.

Overloading thousands of times has yet to get me any little pain from injury.

Go figure, Chicken Little.

What does it all mean?

Everything has risk, and some people can't calculate it.

28 December 2004, 00:53

Puncher

Well said, Clark, well said!

28 December 2004, 08:41

djpaintles

Not being able to get the velocity I want without going over listed maximums is one of my favorite excuses for buying a new rifle. Why risk life and limb when it's more fun to try a different caliber.....

....DJ

29 December 2004, 03:09

<eldeguello>

Quote:

Quote:

That is over max.

Stubblejumper said:

Overmax according to who? All that matters is that the load is safe in the gun that it is fired in.

AMEN!!

"It seems very difficult to impress most reloaders with the fact that every rifle is an individual, and what proves to be a maximum load in one may be quite mild in another, and vice versa." Bob Hagel, GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS FOR THE AMERICAN HUNTER, 1977

29 December 2004, 03:33

Bobby

Some of the reasons for those who load over max and get into trouble are the same reasons a lot of reloader simply stay within published guidelines.
First, is the lack of understanding of pressure signs for a lot of reloaders. Sticky extraction, locked up bolts, cratered primers, looser primers, marred or flowing case heads are the some of the things that a lot of reloaders don't comprehend. That's not to call them ignorant, just uneducated for whatever reason.

Second, the fact that weather, hunidity and heat, play a great role in the pressure of some load concoctions, is also not understood.

Third, the fact that loads can change based on the condition of the firearm. If you're near max, (for your particular rifle) and ANYTHING changes, it is likely to affect the pressure generated, such as barrel fouling.

Fourth, is just plain ole misunderstanding the beast with which we deal. Just because a 24" test barrel in the Hornady ballistics lab gets 3050 fps with a certain .270 Winchester 130 grain load using CCI primers, a lot of folks think that their 24" Winchester M70 should get the same thing. It ain't necessarily so, too many manufacturing variables.

Fifth, which brings up more variables. A load that is safe wtih CCI 200 primers, does not necessarily remain safe with Winchester primers, or CCI benchrest primers or whatever. There are simply too many variables in components to make any sort of qualified statements. That's where intelligent experimentation comes in.

So you have to work up loads using the components that you prefer, using the data manuals as a guide to give you a good starting point and some idea as to what the end point should look like. We're lucky that we are experimenting within guidelines, and not just throwing darts as to where to start and how far to go.

So now when you think about it, how many reloaders have you talked to who didn't understand these few principles? I'm not picking on anyone, heck we all had to start somewhere. I'm just saying that the manuals are, I'm sure, on the safe side just because of this lack of understanding. One thing is for sure, going much past the published limits results in a point of diminishing returns. Is it worth it to gain a few extra fps? If you figure the fps/grain of a load and then compare the increase by a few tenths of powder, you're probably losing ground instead of gaining. Also, if I need more speed, I'm thinking that's just a darn good excuse for a new rifle!
I have to admit, it sounds corny, but my ole granny used to say, "better safe than sorry" and darn if it ain't stil true. I wanna be here to shoot another day, and I hope you all are too.
Good luck and happy new year.

29 December 2004, 04:49

cummins cowboy

The last pressure thread I brought up was because I went over to hodgdon's reloading charts and found that cartridges like the short mags are all loaded to like 64 or 65k psi. The 270 win for example if I remember correctly was only loaded to 52 or 54k psi. So naturally I got to thinking why in hell are they listing the short mags at truly max pressures and the 270 win at way less than max. I think all of us know relaoding manuels are on the conservative side. I think most of us at least wanna get speeds that are equal to most factory ammo and if our reloading manuels are obviously under loading the cartridges why is it also unwise to closly monitor conditions slowly as we exceed recomendations a bit.
If this happens a rifle will not be blown up, a sticky bolt or flattened primer yes. it also needs to be realized that a change in temps could make said loads to hot. most rifle blow ups are caused by the wrong powder in the case. If you have a dozen powders near your bench this could easily happen. In the scheme of this it is also important to realize that there is a controlled explosion going off inches from out face

29 December 2004, 07:19

Ol` Joe

Quote:

The 270 win for example if I remember correctly was only loaded to 52 or 54k psi. So naturally I got to thinking why in hell are they listing the short mags at truly max pressures and the 270 win at way less than max.

CC,
Hodgdon lists their data for the 270 win in CUP not PSI, A BIG DIFFERENCE. Don`t think they are 12,000psi under the SAAMI rateing for this round, they`re not!
The 270 runs at the same pressures as the WSMs 65000psi or 52000 CUP for the Winchester, I don`t have a CUP value for the WSMs. The pressure measurment scale used makes a difference although both represent the same thing.