Just got a Marlin 45-70 1895G. It was made in 1991. Can it handle 35KPSI loads? Speer manual suggests 28K loads, but other sources says they will handle up to 40K as long as they are post72. Nosler manual won't really say one way or the other.

I would like to try my hand at a hotrodded 300gr partition load with H4198.

Crank one up to about 2100 fps and you won't want a whole lot more. I ran some 300 grainers at that velocity when I got my 1895 and it wasn't real fun to shoot. I found a load with great accuracy at about 1800 fps and that suites me just fine. The caliber is nothing but a "mellon lobber". It won't be flat shooting no matter how much you juice it--falls off real fast once you hit 150 yds!!!

I've shot the 350gr Hornady fp at a bit over 2,000 fps. It's fun and suprisingly accurate. It also turns your shoulder funny shades of purple and your right elbow lividity black from ramming it into the shooting bench top.

Running the same bullet weight at around 1,800fps is much more user friendly and the accuracy is still very good. A co-worker shot a black bear with that load last year and it entered near it's right hip and lodged near in the left neck area (bear was treed @ 20 yards from shooter). That was supposed to be a practice load with the 350gr factory second bullet that Lock Stock and Barrel sold. He was "supposed" to use the 350gr Hornady Interlock @2,000fps load. But they somehow got "forgotten" prior to going hunting.

The 300gr bullets seemed to shred themselves when I shot them into water jugs at @2,100fps, the Hornady 350's held up much better.

It's a seven pound rifle and it'll take hotter loads than most folks can suffer. Have fun , but buy ibuprophen.

Hi Big Country
well hoss hang on to yer socks when ya squeeze one those off. I load alot of 4198 in my siam mauser and man they'll stomp a mud hole in ya and walk it dry 300 gr or not .dont think i'd wana do that to my marlin though.not only is it prob not good for the gun its hard on shoulders too. RayA

Funny, but 28Kpsi will move a 405gr jacketed bullet at 1800fps. In a guide gun, that is the same recoil as a 10lb .375H&H (270gr@2700fps) and identical momentum. And the 45-70 will out penetrate the .375.

Going from 1800fps to 2000fps with a 405gr jacketed causes a large non-linear pressure increase from 28Kpsi to over 40Kpsi. And all you get is an extra 200fps.

I agree with Kraky completely - you can't flatten the trajectory out by cranking up the velocity. Either your body will rebel against the abuse of the recoil and you'll develop bad habits. Or the gun will hammer itself apart.

The Marlin is a good gun. Anything that gets hit in the vital area with the 45-70 is going down very quickly.

Having said that, I agree with others have said. The rifle looses much of it's fun when you push the limits. It can really do some damage to the shooter. Also, the gun was simply not made to handle the high end loads. You will begin to peen the bolt lugs if you insist on feeding it only the high pressure loadings.

I use a hard cast 425 grn bullet with IMR 3031. I forget the exact loading, but I have backed it way down.

quote:

I've shot the 350gr Hornady fp at a bit over 2,000 fps. It's fun and suprisingly accurate. It also turns your shoulder funny shades of purple

This is what I shoot. 350gr Hornady can do anything you need! I have taken plenty of moose and it runs pretty damn accurate to 150 yards out. Not bad considering .458 dia isn't made for accuracy compared to knock down power.

My chrony is clocking them with a average of 2073 fps. You feel every bit of it!
I have a picture of a 350gr. Hornady recovered from a moose if anyone wants to see it. Perfect mushroom, 98% weight retention, doubled dia. expansion. Everything you want in a bullet! Just PM me with your e-mail address if anyone wants to see it or post it for me.

the 405s at 1800 are only with IMR3031 AFAIK. It's what I use. you are supposed to be able to get 2000 fps with 405s and H4198, but the non-linearity can't be determined from a different powder; I don't thing H4198 at 1800 is 28000.

the 405s at 1800 are a SOB with the factory stock, and no picnic with a slip on pachmayr pad either.

I consider myself a glutton for punishment, and I like big bores, but 405s at 1800 in my 1895SS are enough for me.

Thanks guys, and I don't mean any offense but really don't need a lesson in recoil. All I was wanting to know was why all the different sources saying different things in the manuals. I have shot 300 grainer at 2200fps before, and can't say it was bad as my slug gun with some rounds. Maybe more than my 300RUM with a heavy bullet.

Garrett loads to 35,000, PMC to 37,000 , and Buffalo Bore to I think 40,000. They all approve their loads for the Marlin. If you are using it for deer the factory 300s work very well.Some I thought were a bit too fragile so I use the Winchester Partition which is great.The 300s at 1850 is a load Winchester had 100 years ago ,it still works.The 45-70 does not work by velocity but by punching a big hole.

[I found the sierra 300 gr HPFN pro hunetr be the softest 45/70 bullet I have used to date..................IMHO if you want the best heavy game 45/70 bullet period it is the woodleigh 405 gr 45/70 flat point, it hangs together like nothing else but also expand to a big mush room at the moderate speeds of the 45/70, the re, 405 and speer 400's are quite soft and on heavier game I would want the woodleigh.

bigcountry;

SAAMI specs for the .45-70 are kept low so trapdoor springfields don't start blowing up. others beleive that the modern (post '72) Marlin 1895 action can handle more, some more than others. thus, different manuals say different things. Marlin will not say. So, different people are willing to take different risks. Hodgdon loads to 40,000, IMR to 28,000, etc.

there is much debate as to the differences between the 336/1895/450 marlin actions, some say there is a heat treating difference, others say not, some say it doesn't matter because their loads haven't blown anything up yet, and that includes some ammo manufacturers.

recoil comes up in marlin reloading discussions often, because many people are stopped by recoil before they are stopped by pressure. that's the way it is in a straight-stocked 7.5 lb. gun with a plastic buttpad.

I hope this is more responsive to your question.

Thanks dEll, excellent info.

Maybe you will know. What is the skinny with cast bullets and microgroove. I would like to load beartooth 405gr cast. You ever try Laser Cast? Are they too soft for 1700fps?

all I know about that is what I have seen on the net, so take it for what its worth, but my recollection is that cast bullets in good hard alloy (i.e. quenched wheelweights) cast to .459 minimum are supposed to work in a micro-groove barrel. note that many of the cast .45-70 bullets out there are .457 or .458, those are supposed to be too small.

you will need gas checks at a certain performance level, I don't know what that is, but it is sure to be below the 1800 fps I will want.

when I am looking for *yet another* project to start, that one is next on my list.

PM Jackfish for more info, he's a nice guy with good experience, I remember him from the old Marlintalk forum before it was shut down. If he doesn't know more about this, he can point you in the right direction.

FWIW, I shoot the 405 rem over 3031 for 1800 at 28000, and that's as fast and as high as I care to go. there is supposed to be another 200 fps out there, but that will be at 40000 and I personally do not feel the need for it. maybe after I get a good recoil pad, but not before, that's for sure.

The thing about micro-groove rifling is that it is more sensitive to both bullet hardness and diameter.Make sure you have a bullet that is .001" larger than grove diameter and hard enough for the velocity.

I was looking at beartooth 405 and 425gr. They give you a choice of .458 thru .460. So what you guys are tellin me, I should pick one like .459" for microgroove.

Would you guys rather have a Gas Checked bullet or one like a 405gr Laser Cast without a Gas Check.

Could I push a Gas Checked bullet hotter?

non gas checked is cheaper, so I prefer them when I can use them.

whether or not you *can* use them is aa different analysis.

The 1895 Cowboy Gun will lob 510 grains at 1800 fps or there about. The recoil at 1600 fps is not that bad, the terminal effects are stellar. Reloader 7 does the trick with paper patched lead.

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:
I was looking at beartooth 405 and 425gr. They give you a choice of .458 thru .460. So what you guys are tellin me, I should pick one like .459" for microgroove.

Either slug your barrel or take your chances. If you "take your chances", don't buy more than 100 to start with.

In my opinion, your best bet is is a 400'ish grain bullet with 3 lube grooves, plain base (not gas-checked), .460" diameter, Flat point, with a BHN of about 15-18.

I think OT LazerCast is OK, but (1) they won't make a .460" bullet for you and (2) more experienced bullet testers are concerned that they will fragment against heavy bone.

Gas-checks are great, but (my opinion) they are not needed for the 45-70. I've shot 405gr hardcast to just under 2000fps with great accuracy (but killer recoil). The sweet spot for the 45-70 is in the 400gr range - 300gr is light. You might need a gas check for 2100fps, but I doubt it. Bullet fit is the key and it is usually cheaper to buy a proper fitting bullet than to buy one with a copper diaper

When your bullets start keyholing after about 10 shots, you'll know your "chance" didn't work out. It OK, as I've a box of "chance" sitting in my reloading cabinet too.

If you really want to just shoot cheap and not fiddle with barrel leading and cranky bullet casters - buy a box of Remington 405gr JSPs.

Have fun!

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:
Thanks guys, and I don't mean any offense but really don't need a lesson in recoil. All I was wanting to know was why all the different sources saying different things in the manuals.

Your right, You didn't ask for recoil sob stories. The way the bolt locks up is what concerns me in regards to high pressure loads. There's not a lot of steel there to hold things togther. I'll stay with loads under 40K cause I like the way my mug looks without a bolt in my fore head.

Slug your barrel or measure it, cuz .458 guns vary from .457" to .460" so you never know til you measure your own rifle.

Thanks everyone, seems beartooth will make just about anything I want. They are gas checked. I have never sluged a barrel before. Do I have to buy that kit or have a smith do it?

Everyone's help was great.

I agree, there's not much that locks up the action on these levers. If I get a 405 kicking at 1800fps, I will be happy, and bet my shoulder will be too. But would really like to find some good 300gr partition loads kicking at 2200fps.

Bigcountry, find yourself a lead bullet of bore diameter or slightly larger. If bore diameter give it a light rap with a hammer or malet on the nose. That will cause it to bump up a bit in diameter. Place the bullet or round ball on the muzzle and tap it into the rifling with the malet. Obviously a softer alloy is preferable to hard, and DON'T do this with a jacketed bullet please. Once inside the bore a cleaning rod will carry it to the breech end without difficulty. Remove and measure the ridges. Whatever you come up with is your groove diameter, and that is the important one. The measurement of the grooves in the bullet will be your bore/land dimension.

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:
Thanks everyone, seems beartooth will make just about anything I want. They are gas checked. I have never sluged a barrel before. Do I have to buy that kit or have a smith do it?
...

Brownell's sells a do-it-yourself kit. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=384

You might also ask your bullet supplier to provide a "sampler" pack of bullet diameters. In other words, ask them for 10 bullets each of various diameters. It is done all the time by the varmint crowd, when looking for the best long range accuracy. I believe that Midwayusa sells a varmint sampler in .223.

The gas check is used when you are going to drive a cast bullet to a relatively high velocity. It keeps the base from deforming, thus loosing the seal. I would suspect you will want gas checked from what you say.



These just some of bullets I have played with in the 45-70. From left to right, 510grn, 500grn, 425grn, 300grn HP Remington, 300grn hard cast, 300grn soft cast. Just for comparisons, the 510grn next to the 300grn.



Of these, I prefer the 425grn for hogs (great penetration with minimum meat damage), the 300grn HP Remington for deer (opens quick) and the 300grn soft cast for plinking with very light loads of unique. All of them are accurate in my Marlin 1895cb 26" barrel.