what happened to this product?
does anyone still molycoat bullets or bores?

I have a 243AI Douglas S.S. I use 95gr Berger VLD moly coated bullets. it shoots pretty good. I was able to load these up to 3250f/s with H4831sc..
The combo produced a carbon ring at the throat I lost some accuracy but was able to clean it out reset the OAL and the accuracy was back . my total round count is just under 800 fired.

Yes.

We molly coat all our bullets, using a spray on Molly.

Everyone I know who jumped on that wagon years ago when it was a fad, has long since dropped it as a useless or marginal idea. Including me.
I'm talking about tumbling in moly powder, not spray on, which is a different animal.

I did a very comprehensive test years ago on one of my wildcats.

Over all, there was a slight improvement in velocity - nothing to write home about, but a definite increase of a few feet’s per second.

There was also a slight improvement in accuracy.

Again, not much.

But, the main reason I still use it is the incredible improvement in the elimination of copper fouling.

That alone is enough for me to use it.

I used to spend long periods of time cleaning barrels.

That has been reduced enormously!

I use an industrial Molly coating I get from the UK.

It is much cheaper than what is offered by the gun trade, and actually works better too.

I could never understand the stopping copper fouling argument for anything. Copper is easy to remove. But I’m up for something that will eliminate hard carbon.

Never had any problems with any fouling except copper.

And using Molly spray certainly reduced that drastically.

There are rifle barrels that severely copper foul. This is one





This JC Higgins rifle has a chromed bore, and it took less than 20 rounds before the rifling disappeared from view from copper fouling. I paid a gunsmith to polish the tube, and that resulted in less fouling in 20 rounds, but it still fouled.

But, I had the experience of greasing cupro nickel bullets to prevent jacket fouling. First I did this was with Iraqi 303 British that left huge lumps of cupro nickel jacket fouling, and it took months of soaking with Sweets to remove the stuff. However, after heavily greasing the bullets, absolutely no jacket fouling. My experience mirrored the experience of pre WW1 American shooters, as this was a common practice.

that Mobil Lubricant in the can was period axle grease in a smaller can.



So, I greased the bullets for my JC Higgings



I prefer these non industrial greases, such as hair gel or vasoline. They are non toxic if I get my fingers in my mouth, whereas industrial greases, while they work well, they are not meant for contact with skin, never mind swallowing.

Anyway greased rounds shoot well



and absolutely no fouling, no matter how many rounds.

I have fired some real greased up bullets

before and after







and I actually see a plume of something out in front of the barrel.!

However, I am 100% convinced that grease reduces jacket fouling, and cleanup is merely pushing a patch through the tube. And I cannot but believe that grease reduces throat and barrel wear by introducing a lubricant between the barrel and bullet, and cooling the combustion gases.

The disadvantage of light greases is they get on everything, and flow back into the action.





I believe the mess soft grease makes was why the Swiss used a very stiff grease ring for so long. About a century, don't know why they stopped.





This ring must have a high beeswax content and is close to candle wax in stiffness.

New rounds with greased bullets are still on the market.

A very good friend of mine in the US swears by greasing the bullets.

He does it on everything.

Including 22 rim fire and air rifle pellets.

One day I might try it.

What sort of grease do you use?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
A very good friend of mine in the US swears by greasing the bullets.

He does it on everything.

Including 22 rim fire and air rifle pellets.

One day I might try it.

What sort of grease do you use?

The 22lr is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, cartridge on the market, and it was always externally lubricated. Pick up any match 22lr ammunition (except Eley Edge) and it is greasy from top to bottom. Eley Edge, I believe Eley tried a sintered teflon on the case, and some powder coat on the bullet.

What sort of grease do I use?, I have tried most everything and finally decided on hair gel. I like the Murray's primarily because it is stiff. Hair gels are vasoline (petroluem jelly) with pleasant fragrances, and they are human compatible. The pictures of massive grease on the 30-06 round, that was old lubriplate A130. That grease was so old it was separating in the tube.

However, based on the very old article I am going to post, it seems the old, old, timers were mixing beeswax and grease to create a hard coating. A hard coating, similar to what the Swiss used, would be more likely to stay one, and not melt over everything.

If you have not noticed, American's have believed for over a century in an US Army coverup that demonized greased bullets and greased cartridges. You see this all the time. The US Army built over 1 million M1903's in old, obsolete Arsenals. I have found evidence of one pyrometer, which was used for springs. I have not found any evidence of pyrometic cones being used to calibrate temperatures, instead whenever metal was heated, the temperature was based on eyeballs jugding the color of the metal. This is a most inexact system of judging temperature and resulted in a lot of burnt billets. It did not help that the Arsenals paid forge shop workers piece rate. Heating a billet way, way up, decreases stamping time, so there were perverse incentives to over heat metal. And it is evident that Arsenals had chaotic production controls: I have a report of a 1917 rifle that made it past proof test, and the receiver was not heat treated. Springfield Armory at least, did not have metallurgical tests of their raw materials, or in process metallurgical testing. Only after Springfield Armory was shut down during WW1, (probably due to all the rotten rifles they were producing) did they hire ten full time people for a “Metallurgical Department”. Given the lack of temperature controls, process controls, and who knows what they received as materials, an Army Board recommended scrapping all 1,000,000 “low number” 03’s, but they were kept in service, and continued to blow up in the hands of service men on the firing line. It was just cheaper to trust to luck, accept that a few soldiers would be permanently injured, than to scrap all those rifles. And surprisingly, many today still accept that logic. There are low number 1903 fan boys. They are no different from any other deniers, but I believe, that few of them actually shoot the low number 1903's.

Anyway, instead of admitting that the Army made defective rifles, the Army shifted the blame. Because shooters were coating their bullets in grease, and of course those cartridges were perfect Army cartridges, and they were fired in perfect Army rifles, whenever a rifle blew up, the blow up had to be due to the grease! And the Army created a rather extensive cover up, and still believes that grease and oil on cartridges massively, and unpredictably raises pressures. Since whatever the Army believes to be true, civilian shooters also believe to be true. American shooters are as a group ignorant of all the weapons that fired greased and oiled cartridges since vast majority were machine guns or machine cannon. And they dismiss all accounts of small arms using greased or oiled ammunition, which a few are, or engage in magical thinking to make what their eyes see, fit the Army coverup.

Anyway, a blast from the past, from the Arms and the Man. Many thanks for Google for scanning these old magazine issues

27 April 1918 Rifle Training in War, part 4 Major Smith Brookhart

The use of greased bullets in rifle training is very desirable. There was a time when riflemen argued about the effect of grease upon the accuracy of the rifle but it long ago ended in favor of the grease.

The Winchester Company is now making all of its tests of both rifles and ammunition with greased bullets. When bullets were fired dry it was found the ammunition from the first loading machines would give the best velocity, with slightly reduced velocities apparent in the product of succeeding machines although fired from the same rifle. After they began greasing the bullets the velocity held even and steady. The results from the last machines were just as good as the first. It is true the velocity of greased bullets is higher, but it is even. They all go the same, providing they are greased about the same. It was claimed that grease in the chamber caused the primers to blow uot but that is a mistake. There is a higher pressure caused by the more perfect sealing of the bore when grease is used, but the pressure is not increased enough to blow out a properly seated primer.

The greatest benefit of the greased bullet is its effect upon the life of the rifle. In tests a few year ago all of the rifles which figured in the trials were worn out and lost their accuracy under three thousand round when fired with dry bullets. Those fired with greased bullets held their accuracy from 6700 to 7200 rounds. Accuracy as used here must not be confounded with “serviceable” as applied to the ordnance tests. These rifles showed no loss of accuracy until they had fired the above number of rounds and without the grease they showed loss of accuracy upon firing less than half the number. If the use of grease ill double the life of a rifle, it is very important.

Grease also prevents metal fouling and prevents acid fouling for the powder. It is a fine preservative for the bore of the rifle, but it has some disadvantages. As generally used it is dirty and disagreeable to handle. If mixed with sand and dirt it is very injurious to the rifle. It must e kept clean and it must be applied evenly. A small amount on each bullet is sufficient. It causes a certain amount of smoke and that may prevent its use on the battle field and especially by snipers. Nevertheless, it protects the rifle and ought to be used during the training period. If a bad quality of grease is used it causes carbon fouling.

Mobilubricant, Polarine, cup grease, or Keystone Journal grease may be used by putting the point of each bullet in the grease or by rubbing it over the bullets on a whole clup. Blue ointment used in the same way makes an excellent bullet grease. The best plan is a compound of 40% beeswax and 40% Carnauba wax and 20% Petrolatum. This must be melted and the bullets must be warmed and dipped into it. If the bullets are cold they take too much. They can be warmed with hot water. This compound hardens, is clean and easy to handle. When fired it leaves a trace of smoke along the entire course of the bullet, but that is no disadvantage in training. The great riflemen of the United States have nearly all used greased bullets during the last half dozen years.

Metal fouling is also entirely prevented by the use of greased bullets.

The rifle is preserved and its life prolonged by the use of greased bullets.

The use of grease is fool proof.

The only possible injuries that can result from its use arise when sand or dirt becomes mixed with and scratch the bore or when grease closes up the bore and bursts the barrel.

Both are easily avoided.

The writer has ample proof of these conclusions. He has commanded riflemen when the won world championships with rifles that had been fired more than 3000 times without any cleaning whatever. But every bullet had been greased. One of these rifles that had fired over 3300 rounds without cleaning the bore, showed signs of loss in accuracy at 1000 yards the day before the Palma match in 1912. The bore was wiped out and a collection of hard baked carbon fouling was found near the muzzle. This was removed with a steel brush and next day that rifle put on 216 points out of a possible 225 at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. This was the second score in the team that made the world’s record in the Palma match-and the man who made 217 also greased his bullets. This rifle fired 3300 rounds before cleaning of any kind was necessary, and then was only because of a carbon fouling which was easily removed. There was no acid reaction. Since that date other riflemen have won the Herrick, the Wimbledon, the Marine Corps and the Regimental Championship with the same treatment of their rifles. These are the greatest test of accuracy in the United States. The failure to clean the ordinary fouling from the rifle daily, was no advantage. Neither did it cause any injury. A better way would be to wipe it out and oil, but the burned grease is a protection and not an injury to the bore.
It would save many million of dollars lost in worn out rifles if- The War Department would prohibit the use of the solutions and instead-
Issue the beeswax, Carnauba wax and petrolatum compound for greasing bullets.

It would increase the efficiency of men in rifle practice.

It would make rifle cleaning easy and preserve the rifle.

The president of the National Rifle Association now has a rifle that has fired over 7000 rounds of greased bullets and is still at its best for accuracy It has never been treated with the solutions.

2 Nov 1918 Little Lessons In Reloading , by John Lynn, No 3- Greasing Bullets.


One of the most serviceable bullet lubricants is a mixture of mobilubricant, graphite and beeswax. Before giving the proportions most desirable, it is well to analyze the subject a bit.

Bullets are lubricated to cut down or prevent leading and metal fouling of the rifle barrel, to make cleaning for the barrel easier, and to make bullet resistance to powder gases more uniform. They are lubricated also to reduce friction and wear on the barrel, to increase bullet velocity, to lessen barrel flip slightly, and in some cases, to secure marked increases in accuracy. Some of these points are frequently overlooked by shooters.

The grease first of all must be of such a nature that heat will not “break it up” chemically and release elements in it which are not of a lubricating nature. It so happens that very many materials commonly thought of as greases will not conform to this test. In fact, some of them give free carbon when subjected to the high temperature of small bore rifles, and this carbon acts in the barrel like sand or powdered emery instead of a lubricant.

Other greases simply disappear under high temperature. To a large extent tallow does this. It is a lubricant, all right, for big-bore, low-powder bullets, where the temperature is low, but in more modern cartridges is nearly worthless. The melting point of tallow and other similar greases is so low that when a cartridge is loaded into a hot barrel it quickly becomes liquid and unless the base of the bullet fits the shell neck very tight, may drain back into the powder.

Mobilubricant is all lubricant, even at the highest temperature. In itself it would be an ideal bullet grease if it were not so soft, but it rubs off too easily for most convenient reloading and melts too soon for best results in cartridges. Graphite, a dry powder, is another goo lubricant, since it never changes under the highest temperature-but it cannot be made to stick to the bullets without mixing it in some carrier. Beeswax belongs to the class of lubricants which largely evaporate at high temperature, enough to carry the other materials to the point where they are needed before it goes off the job. The combination of the three is extremely effectual.

The manufacturers state that five to ten per cent of graphite should be added to ordinary cup greases, for use in bearing. For bullets the maximum can be used-that is, the quantity should be at least 10 percent of the weight of the other elements, and may well be 10 percent of the mobilubricant alone. Usually it will take almost as much beeswax as mobilubricant to make the mixture stiff enough, though if less than this can be used all the better. The beeswax is of no value except as a carrier.

The best way of lubricating cast bullets is with a machine that forces on the grease at the same time they are sized, as the Ideal does. Metal-cased bullets must be lubricated by hand just before they are put in the rifle, and the box of grease with a bullet-sized hole in the top cannot be beat as a help, though many shooters simply use a finger. Cast bullets can be lubricated by hand by taking a lump of grease on a finger and rubbing it over the grooves, about as satisfactorily as by dipping them and wiping of cutting off the surplus.
Other materials to take the place of beeswax, especially, and of mobilubricant have been available, but are not now, on account of the war. One caution necessary is to be sure that every bullet is lubricated equally all the way round. If one side is dry, or nearly so, the result almost surely will be a falling off in accuracy. Another important point for owners of high power rifles is to shoot as few dry bullets as possible, since one such will reduce the life of the barrel as much as several well and properly greased.


I will say, you don't need much grease on the bullet, a dip and twist works well at the range. I also lightly coat new cartridges so they will fire form without any stretching. I have had the occasional shoulder dent in 6.5 X 55 Swede when I allowed grease to build up. Never had that issue with very tapered cartridges.









six hundred yards with greased bullets, and half the case necks cracking!



the shooting community accepts three shot groups as the standard for accuracy and consistency, which of course, shows how well advertising shapes and molds minds, so here is a 300 yard, three shot group, with greased bullets.

The cases sure look messy with all that coated
Does it cause pressure problems or does it reduce pressure.

Here is some pictures of a moly coated barrel after about 800 fairly hot rounds.
questions and comments welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
The cases sure look messy with all that coated
Does it cause pressure problems or does it reduce pressure.

I have seen data that indicates grease or oil, blown forward from combustion gases, reduces the engraving resistance of the bullet. And that drops pressures a little. But it is not to be used an excuse for "pouring on the coal".

And neither does the case sticking that does occur with dry cases in dry chambers, to be used as an excuse to "pour on the coal".

I do use lubricated cases to observe when primers go from rounded to flat. And I know, when they flatten, I am above a maximum load. I want to fully load the bolt to detect resistance to opening, but spring tension and cocking cam angles will conspire against this as a sure fire method of detecting over max loads during load development.

I have done all the above many times, with a chronograph, thinking I have exhaustively determined a safe maximum load, only to find, weeks later, rounds later, blown or leaking primers. Which then, require cutting the load until the troubles go away.

As a general rule, it is best to stay away from maximum loads as they are finicky, troublesome and it is hard to prove on paper, that more means more. And more velocity should not be used as an excuse to shoot at live creatures way beyond the marksmanship skills of the shooter. Though hubris reigns in this category.

Without pressure gauges, we are all oblivious to what is actually going on in the tube.

quote:

Here is some pictures of a moly coated barrel after about 800 fairly hot rounds.
questions and comments welcome.

Hi,
A couple of questions.
1). Was any barrel cleaning done at intervals while shooting those 800 rounds ?
2). Where in the barrel is that carbon ring shown in the fourth pic up from the bottom ?
Cheers

I t was brushed and patched every 5 rounds shooting 1000 yr bench rest. Break in was shot 1 clean shoot 2 clean up to 15 rounds ahile fire forming lapua 243 brass.
the most I shot with out cleaning was 20 rounds #3 from the bottom is where the bore meets the rifling. it has moved about .075" from new.
the other #1 & #4 carbon wide section is the shoulder.
I think the blue/green in Barrel shows a lot of copper

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
I t was brushed and patched every 5 rounds shooting 1000 yr bench rest. Break in was shot 1 clean shoot 2 clean up to 15 rounds ahile fire forming lapua 243 brass.
the most I shot with out cleaning was 20 rounds #3 from the bottom is where the bore meets the rifling. it has moved about .075" from new.
the other #1 & #4 carbon wide section is the shoulder.
I think the blue/green in Barrel shows a lot of copper

Brushing and chemical cleaners will not remove impacted crud. At some point, to clean out the throat, you will need to use JB Bore paste.

I gave it a good cleaning and removed all the copper I will pull the barrel and clean up the chamber with JB Recoat the bore with moly and see what from there.
Been thinking about a new barrel maybe a Swift.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
I gave it a good cleaning and removed all the copper I will pull the barrel and clean up the chamber with JB Recoat the bore with moly and see what from there.
Been thinking about a new barrel maybe a Swift.

I talk to my F Class friends and their barrels lives are not even a fourth that I was getting as an across the course shooter. My 308 Win 200 yard sitting and standing loads were a 168 with 39 grs of IMR 4895, darn light. I went to 41.0 grs IMR 4895 at 300 years, and then 41.0 to 41.5 grains IMR 4895 at 600 yards with a 168 SMK or 175 SMK. My barrels lasted easily 4000 to 5000 rounds.

My buds, if they shoot 308 Win, they are using 185 Bergers or 200 grain Bergers and they are pushing those things faster than I was pushing a 168!!! And they do it every round. Their barrel lives are around 1000 rounds.

A bud of mine, before he went to F Class Nationals, he had either a 6mm or 6.5 with 400 rounds, and before the Nationals ended, his barrel wore out. He shot about 600 rounds at the Nationals. I saw his scores, did very well at the beginning, and was absolutely at the bottom at the end. His barrel would not hold the black, might not have even stayed on the target.

Those hot little 6 and 6.5 mm cartridges, they are barrel burners. I do remember a guy who claimed his 264 Win Mag keyholed around 800 rounds.

A barrel is either shooting better, or it is shooting worse. If your is shooting worse, take it off. But if you can get 200, 300 more rounds, go for it.

And if there is a special on match barrel blanks, buy a barrel full. And have your gunsmith on speed dial.

And, have one rifle to shoot, one rifle at the gunsmith, and one rifle as a backup. That way, you may have one operational rifle in the house.

I have a few barrels in the closet.
I have a Bartlein in 308 bore. 1:10 HB .. (26" when finished) trying to stay under 17 pounds.
I have not shot much the past couple years but now I am going to try to be ready for next year.