Below is a picture of two solutions in which I clean my brass in my Harbor Freight ultra-sonic cleaner. The recipe for both of them is essentially identical at 1/3 vinegar, 2/3 tap water, 2.5 cc (1/2-tsp) of the powder you buy with the cleaner and a squirt of grease-cutting dishwashing liquid. I clean the brass, transfer the dirty solution to a jug or bottle, let it set for hours and hours or days and days so the carbon and crap can settle, then siphon the cleared solution back into a clean jug. The clear stuff on the right has been used several times, in fact, maybe as many as ten times to clean as many as two hundred cases at a time. The stuff on the left is fairly new, having been used only a few times to clean just a few dozen at a time. My question is why is the well-used stuff so much more clear then the stuff with so few miles on it?

The blue coloring is likely from copper.

He said the blue one is the one that hasn't been used yet.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
He said the blue one is the one that hasn't been used yet.

Evidently reading comprehension is not your strong suite. Go back and re-read the post. He stated, "The stuff on the left is fairly new, having been used only a few times to clean just a few dozen at a time."

Is the dish soap you use blue? I'm thinking if it is, then after a few uses the dyes in the dish soap that make it blue (some sort of yellow and green dye more than likely to make it a purty blue colour) are being vibrated so much that they eventually are vibrated into nothing, or the brass soaks up some of the dye molecules?

That's my guess.

Back in the day, I took a class called Organic Qualitative Analysis, which was basically a class that the professor gave us unknown compounds which we were tasked to determine what those unknowns were. One of the first tests ran, was a simple flaming test, in that you subject the unknown to a flame. If the flame burned blue, you knew immediately the unknown compound contained copper. A very simple easy test.

With many of the cleaning products designed specifically to clean barrels once copper bullets have been used, the instructions say continue steps 1-4, or whatever, until there is no more blue coloring on a clean patch with solvent. Why is this? Because the ammonia in the solvent is reacting with the copper removing it from your barrel, which is the reason they state to continue until the blue coloring goes away, which equals no more copper in you barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
He said the blue one is the one that hasn't been used yet.

Evidently reading comprehension is not your strong suite. Go back and re-read the post. He stated, "The stuff on the left is fairly new, having been used only a few times to clean just a few dozen at a time."

Yep.

I guess I comprehended that it was used much less, yet was blue. I also noodled out that for one to be blue "from copper" as you say, would more than likely have seen more use

My dish detergent is red-orange. I only use maybe 5cc in a liter of solution.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
He said the blue one is the one that hasn't been used yet.

Evidently reading comprehension is not your strong suite. Go back and re-read the post. He stated, "The stuff on the left is fairly new, having been used only a few times to clean just a few dozen at a time."

Yep.

I guess I comprehended that it was used much less, yet was blue. I also noodled out that for one to be blue "from copper" as you say, would more than likely have seen more use

Well, You said, "...hasn't been used yet." Where he said, "... used only a few times..." Therefore, I noodled out that he has used the solvent and you noodled out he hasn't. I'll let you figure it out from here who is comprehending what was written and what wasn't.

Bluer dosn't always mean more use. Perhaps the stuff on the right has never been exposed to brass where copper bullets were ever loaded? He didn't say if he was using lead cast bullets, copper bullets, etc.

Ever used a copper based product to control algae in a pond or lake? They are blue in color because of all the copper. It is common in the chemical world that if you see blue without some type of dye added, it is commonly associated with copper.

Which also goes back to my comments on the copper-based solvents specifically marketed towards the new all copper bullets. Why do you think they specifically mention the color blue? Why not black from the powder residue? Most would think once the black is gone, the barrel is clean. Nope! They are targeting the copper fouling in the barrel; hence, the blue coloring is the tail-tail indicator.

Oh yeah!?!?!?!

Well my Dad can beat up your Dad!.....

quote:

The ASTM B19 specification for Brass states that the composition is 68.5% - 71.5% copper, up to .07% lead, up to .05% iron and the remainder is zinc.

graybird opines,

quote:

Perhaps the stuff on the right has never been exposed to brass where copper bullets were ever loaded? He didn't say if he was using lead cast bullets, copper bullets, etc.

The cases have all been fired at least once using copper bullets. The cases are all .223Rems, the vast majority of which are mil-surp.

Keep in mind your brass is in a complexed state not free as with a slight sliver of copper that was scratched off the bullet from a bur inside the case, who knows?

Here is a little video that might help you out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...-q0g&feature=related

Just searh for "copper ammonia" and you'll find several videos. I just picked one without the anoying music.

Also, why do you think they clean tarnished brass with ammonia? It is because the copper in the brass has oxidized to form copper oxide producing the tarnished look. Why is the Statue of Liberty blue and not as bright and shiny as a new penny? She's made of copper you know!

Since graybird can't comprehend,

The point is that brass is composed of copper.

I didn't think I'd have to spell it out.

'bird asks,

quote:

Why is the Statue of Liberty blue and not as bright and shiny as a new penny?

Because it has a hundred-plus years of patina on it. At least I hope it does. Be a shame to remove it during one of its refurbishings...

You're right! Some folks are experts on everything. The brass is a bound complex, where the copper fouling is free and not bound. Blah blah blah... why bother>>>>

Why don't you run a little experiment?

You need four beakers.

Beaker #1 - old solution and put a new piece of brass in it.

Beaker #2 - new solution and put a new piece of brass in it.

Beaker #3 - old solution and scrape a piece from a copper bullet into it

Beaker #4 - new solution and scrape a piece from a copper buller into it

Results, see which turns blue first, the beakers with the brass or the beakers with the copper shaving.

Here's the answer ..... Maybe a smurf pissed in your new solution!!!!

Unless homebrewer is shooting Barnes, Swift, or other bullets that are made of pure copper, the jackets are made of gilding metal.

Gilding metal has a higher content of copper than the case, but is still considered "brass".

homebrewer,

Is the cleaning solution blue right after being mixed?

Does it turn blue after minimal use?

Does it always turn clear after heavy use?

quote:

I clean the brass, transfer the dirty solution to a jug or bottle, let it set for hours and hours or days and days so the carbon and crap can settle, then siphon the cleared solution back into a clean jug

If the solution has blue color when it is new, possibly with each use, the chemical reaction that occurs causes a precipitant. Maybe the chemical that is colored precipitates out of the solution by bonding with the carbon or other impurities leaving the remaining solution clear.

?

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Unless homebrewer is shooting Barnes, Swift, or other bullets that are made of pure copper, the jackets are made of gilding metal.

Gilding metal has a higher content of copper than the case, but is still considered "brass".

homebrewer,

Is the cleaning solution blue right after being mixed?

Does it turn blue after minimal use?

Does it always turn clear after heavy use?

No, r. The solution is pretty much clear like the one on the right. It's just water, vinegar and a squirt of detergent. The stuff on the left has a few uses and is just a few days old. The stuff on the right has lots of uses under its belt and is several weeks old. Both will clear up really well if they set long enough. When the stuff is fresh, the crud drops out of it very quickly. Once it gets old, it takes a long time for the precip to drop out. Setting for a few hours gets it pretty clear. Letting it set for days on end clears it up to where it look like it's fresh, or at least very little-used. That's why this thread originated: The stuff on the right has many uses. The stuff on the left is quite fresh. I have no idea why. It still seems to clean as well as the clear stuff. I made up the new stuff because I thought the older stuff was wearing out. I am one who looks at things and wonders Why. This question intrigues me, and I came here looking for answers from people who know much more than me...

From your initial post, I thought that the new solution began as blue, then faded with use. If it starts clear, gets blue with use which precipitates out of the solution, I would have to say the copper in the brass is reacting with something in the solution. Maybe the dishwashing liquid has some ammonia in it.


I think graybird is right in that it is copper, but not from the gilding metal in the neck, from the brass case.

you da man graybird!

The blue color is coming from the vinegar reacting with the copper. If you take the pure copper and react it with acetic acid (aka vinegar) you will produce copper acetate, which is blue in color. Likely what you are seeing.

If you react ammonia with copper, you will get copper sulfate and copper hydroxide, which are also blue. What you see when cleaning with something like Barnes CR-10 after shooting a Barnes or similar all copper bullet.

This quote directly from the Barnes website:

quote:

When I use CR-10 cleaner, why are my patches coming out blue?

The ammonia in CR-10 will react with the copper in your barrel and create the blue discoloration you see on your patches. We recommend running CR-10 soaked patches through your barrel until they come out virtually clean.

The reason I don't think it is coming from the brass is because of the chelating and complexing within the brass itself. Also, if it were coming from the brass, then the older solution would be blue too. This is why I orginally stated it was from one of the new all copper bullets, and likely coming from a copper bullet.

P.S. I still think a smurf pissed in your solvent!!!

Homebrewer, the Harbor site does not list the contents of the cleaning powder. Does the back of the container list what is in it? NaCl or NaOH?

Try using distilled water next time.

I have found that when mixing cleaning solution(Mr. Clean) to refill a spray bottle if I use tap water the mix is cloudy.
If I use water from my dehumidifier (condensate) my homemade spray is clear, coloured but very clear like the store bought stuff.
I suspect the minerals in the water cause the cloudiness and they precipitate out of the solution and fall to the bottom of the storage bottle.

Also try adding some T.S.P. that stuff will clean anything.

Ole sick Doc at your disposal ; http://www.6mmbr.com/ultrasonic.html

Vinegar is a weak form of acetic acid and therefore leaches out colorant dyes.



Now as the contaminates are allowed to settle the vinegar continues to works color disappears .

Brass is part Copper accounting for the color change and Zinc with some other minor impurities.

Have any oranges or lemons ? Shred the outer peel only into the solution see how well it cleans

with Dawn dish washing detergent and no vinegar !!! .

I'll be lying here awaiting a report back .

Without being real technical this is pretty much what you asked .

As all good wort distillers know ;

Cleaning Brass
Some brewers use brass fittings in conjunction with their wort chillers or other brewing equipment and are concerned about the lead that is present in brass alloys. A solution of two parts white vinegar to one part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish and surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5 minutes or less at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow color as it is cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the brass darkens, then the parts have been soaking too long and the copper in the brass is beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The solution has become contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in a fresh solution.

The Chemistry
Both metals used in brass cases (copper and zinc) are soluble in acetic acid (vinegar). The salts, copper acetate and zinc acetate, are also soluble. Zinc is more soluble than copper so it dissolves faster. In addition a galvanic action occurs that cause copper to be dissolved and then redeposited on the surface at the expense of the zinc.

When you clean brass cases in a vinegar solution you change both the chemical and physical properties of the surface of the case. There have been comments about cases being too clean, primers hard to seat, deposits on mandrels, etc. When you change the surface by dissolving some of it and etching it these things will happen. Whether they happen to the point of being a problem becomes the issue.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't use acetic acid or that there is anything wrong with how it cleans


Just remember the acetic acid continues to act until neutralized and water rinse isn't enough !.


Off 6mm BR site ;


ULTRASONIC CLEANING — Baney's Best Recipes

My ultimate solution resulted in shiny brass that was 100% devoid of carbon, inside and out. Even the carbon deposits on the neck and the primer pockets were completely removed! My objective had been accomplished! Dirty old black brass came out like new inside and out…I was amazed. Not only did my protocol work well, but it was the least expensive option in the whole test! For "Cheap and Clean," this is the procedure I settled on:

CHEAP and CLEAN
24 minutes - 50% Vinegar + 1 Drop Dish Soap per 8 ounces water
480 seconds - Baking Soda (BS) in water (1 grain BS per ounce of water)
480 seconds - Hot Water
480 seconds - Distilled Water
Total: 48 minutes
Cost: Less than $2.00 per gallon

And for a Super Shiny and FASTER End Result, Add BC Solution
Since the BC solution had worked so well to shine up the cases earlier, I attempted to work it in with the vinegar procedure to streamline it even more and give even better looking brass. So for a couple dollars more, you can have 100% clean cases, which are even shinier than the "Cheap and Clean" procedure above. So this procedure I'll call "Clean and Shiny."

CLEAN and SHINY
24 minutes - 50% Vinegar + 1 Drop Dish Soap per 8 ounces water
380 seconds - Birchwood Casey (BC) Case Cleaner
380 seconds - Hot Water
380 seconds - Distilled Water
Total: 43 minutes
Cost: $2.00 per gallon for the Vinegar and $4.00 per gallon for BC Cleaner.

Great info Doc!

Thanks for taking the time to be thorough!

quote:

Originally posted by mjm:

Homebrewer, the Harbor site does not list the contents of the cleaning powder. Does the back of the container list what is in it? NaCl or NaOH?

There is no listing on the bottle of what is in the powder, mj. That's strange. I thought our loving and omnipresent Big Brother required ingredients on things that a three year-old might eat. I have tasted a tiny bit of it on my tongue. It does not taste salty, so most likely it sodium hydroxide. When I drop a half-teaspoon of powder into a used batch of solution, it foams up. It foams up so much the tone of the buzzing drops in frequency for a while until the foam dissipates. I thought that was interesting last time I did that.

And they called me OCD on the other thread!

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

And they called me OCD on the other thread!

Ain't nothin' OCD about gettin' your brass clean...

Well, I'm sure you left out the parts about putting the Flitz exactly in line with the "W" on the Winchester brass headstamp, using only the foam bullet protectors from the Barnes bullet boxes that contained Tipped TSX's in the next smaller caliber you load for, synchronizing the Zip Trim at exactly 61 RPM so that a 3.5 second grip on the case will yield 3.59 revolutions of the brass resulting in the correct shine.

Etc.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

Well, I'm sure you left out the parts about putting the Flitz exactly in line with the "W" on the Winchester brass headstamp, using only the foam bullet protectors from the Barnes bullet boxes that contained Tipped TSX's in the next smaller caliber you load for, synchronizing the Zip Trim at exactly 61 RPM so that a 3.5 second grip on the case will yield 3.59 revolutions of the brass resulting in the correct shine.

Etc.

We do all these niggling little things so we know we did all we could to get the bullets printing into the same hole on Sunday, or so that big elk we have in our sights is gonna drop when we send that one and only round we can get off at it. It's the process we love, that we believe will result in success when there is no second chance.

quote:

Originally posted by homebrewer:
When I drop a half-teaspoon of powder into a used batch of solution, it foams up.

That explains everything. Vineger is a weak acid. The powder reacted with some of the acetic acid and neutralized it. Your clear solution has less acetic acid remaining. The blue had a higher concentration to react with the copper oxide on the brass. If you let the blue solution evaporate, you will get some neat crystals.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Well, I'm sure you left out the parts about putting the Flitz exactly in line with the "W" on the Winchester brass headstamp, using only the foam bullet protectors from the Barnes bullet boxes that contained Tipped TSX's in the next smaller caliber you load for, synchronizing the Zip Trim at exactly 61 RPM so that a 3.5 second grip on the case will yield 3.59 revolutions of the brass resulting in the correct shine.

Etc.

Sounds like of of the esteemed Mr. Woods methods.

"We do all these niggling little things so we know we did all we could to get the bullets printing into the same hole on Sunday, or so that big elk we have in our sights is gonna drop when we send that one and only round we can get off at it. It's the process we love, that we believe will result in success when there is no second chance."


I guess I should have used a lot of emoticons and the
under my description of what woods does! LOL

Please tell me I didn't hit the nail on the head with my joke homebrewer!

If you could look under a microscope you would not subject your brass to any type of acid esp over and over.

Bottom line is acid will etch and cause porosity issues over time which will cause the brass to weaken. This will hurt your goal of getting the maximum life from your brass and will also cause inconstancy with neck tension because of the increased or decreased gripping potential of the brass against the copper jacket.

Overall not a good solution---just belly up and buy walnut media it lasts a long time. Personally I use corn cob and pitch it when it gets dirty because I will not add any abrasive to prolong brass life as that residue is left inside and outside of the case.

When necessary after turning necks I will use dishwashing detergent in a huge stock pot, place the brass in a basket and raise it up and down in boiling water for a couple of minutes, then repeat the process in clean water twice to remove all traces of soap. To dry I heat the oven to 400 (temp falls to 300 in just a few minutes) place the brass on its side on large cookie sheets and then close the door and turn the oven OFF. The oven will not retain enough heat to get the brass hot enough to worry about hardening and after an hour or so remove the cookie sheets and place somewhere out of the way to complete the drying process.

When completely dry I tumble them for about 15 minutes to remove any water scale-----they are then ready to load.

Boss Hoss says,

quote:

...acid will etch...

I think I see this. I recently did some, and see what looks like streaks on the brass. I did some yesterday without vinegar in it. I'm planning an entire thread about that. I did not see the streaking on these. I'll post up some pictures in this thread in a bit. As far as the vinegar weakening the brass over time, these streaked cases may not get loaded for a long, long time. When they do, they'll set loaded for years before they get fired-- if ever. In this political climate, I don't shoot much. But I do reload...

If I may be so bold as to mention after an initial through cleaning , a light coating of ( I use BoeShield T-9 )

as a case lubricant as it's extremely light and leaves a slight wax residue ; even after wiping with a clean

towel . I use vibratory and synthetic media but Walnut hulls or cob works also .

My point is ; Once one gets their brass clean and shiny ,Boeshield retards tarnishing as well as powder

residue and I usually go 4-5 reloads with nothing more than wiping the brass off after reloading procedures .

It isn't jewelry quality , yet it's clean and shiny enough and it last and last with little fussing .

Difference between polishing media I use and Walnut hulls is my media can be cleaned and is faster ;

I don't recommend that on Walnut or cob though !!!


Which equals more trigger time and less reloading time .

Whatever works is my motto ; this seems to have worked really well for myself over the years .

Here is a picture of what my brass looks like when it's cleaned in the vinegar solution and with no vinegar. The cases on the right are with vinegar. Those on the left are without. The primer pockets get squeaky-clean with vinegar. The pockets of the cases on the left have small bits of residue in them, even after fifteen 380-second cycles without heat.

Yesterday, I decided to do a controlled, repeatable experiment in cleaning without vinegar. I wanted to reduce my costs, what with vinegar being $2.50 a gallon on sale at Walmart. I mix my vinegar at 1:3 with water, so a gallon of solution is about 90 cents, which includes the cost of the mystery powder for the cleaner. I will put up a thread about that experiment pretty soon.

See the streaking and mottling on the righthand brass? I wanted to eliminate this. I figgered a solution without vinegar would do it. It does, but the time to clean is quite a bit longer than when using vinegar. And the primer pockets don't get super clean...

Google "dezincification of brass" and "Stress corrosion cracking" Do not use vinegar or ammonia to clean cartridge brass.

citric acid is very effective in cleaning brass and the gunk from it.
it's also good for the brass.
the vinegar is a weak acid and becomes stronger with a bit of salt in it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:

...vinegar is a weak acid and becomes stronger with a bit of salt in it.

I never used any salt. I read about the vinegar, but never salt. I'm gratified I did not use any...

quote:

Originally posted by 243winxb:

Google "dezincification of brass" and "Stress corrosion cracking." Do not use vinegar or ammonia to clean cartridge brass.

I did. I found this from some outfit calling itself the Hendrix Group. I thought he died in 1970, but what the hell. The bold text is my handiwork.

quote:

Dezincification may show itself as dull red spots developing on the surface of brass after long periods of exposure to urban or industrial atmospheres. These do not normally represent any significant loss of strength in the component concerned but, since they are more than simply superficial they cannot be removed by the cleaning and polishing procedures that would normally restore the brass to its original appearance.