What steps can be taken to extend the life of brass? I've heard 5 firings and I've heard of competition shooters getting 30 plus firings. When good brass costs $1.50/rnd its worth a few extra steps make it last, imo.

What are some factors that can be detrimental to case life: FL vs neck sizing, excessive pressure, improper case prep, low quality brass, excessive headspace?

What steps do you take to ensure long case life and how many firings do you see from your cases (what caliber,brass manufacturer)?

The biggest detriment to case life is work hardening. You touched on a few of the causes. If you are keeping resizing to a minimum by sizing to the chamber and only firing the rounds in one firearm, resizing should be minimal and your brass will last. OTOH if you are loading for more than one gun, you must size to the smallest chamber.
If you can get a resizer made to your chamber specs it is a great help. RCBS used to do this. You would send them 5 fired cases and they would make a die for your rifle. Don't know if they still do this but I have had them "tweek" a die in the not too distant past.
If you search "Partial full length resizing" on this forum you will find lots of info on that as well as neck sizing.

I had the FLS die for my 404 Jeffery (with brass costing considerably more than $1.50 a case)opened up in the neck so that the minimal sizing takes place and is just enough to take the brass down to a thou under requirments and an M die takes it to spec for loading so there is the least brass working. Annealing on the 5th firing helps keep it healthy for a longer usefull life. All my brass gets annealed on the fifth firing and some has had 30+ loadings.
Partial FLS or neck sizing all helps to minimilise work hardening.

Some of it can depend on the springiness of the rifle action with a Lee-Enfield being one of the worst.

1. If you design for maximum case life beginning with the rifle you should pick a rigid front locking bolt gun or a heavy falling block like a Ruger #1 or 1885 Highwall.

2. Design a minimum chamber that is only large enough for a loaded round with .002 to .003 clearance maximum. You need to pick up samples of the most likely used brands of brass and measure the head diameter and design for that brass. Set headspace to .000 or even -.003 to -.004. It is your rifle. If you shoot factory ammo it is the first shot of factory ammo that often damages the case the most, due to the designed in headspace.

3. Get dies that barely size the case enough to rechamber. Ideally these would be bushing dies like Forster or equivalent. If you run into brass variations in the neck you can change the bushings.
With 1, 2 and 3 the brass does not expand much when fired and it is not squeezed down much when resized. The FL die should be set to give .000 to .002 clearance between loaded ammo and the chamber.

4. Use loads that do not expand the primer pockets. These are often the starting or middle loads in a manual. If you are brave enough you can load until the primers get loose then back off on the loads until they last forever. I am not so brave so I do NOT recommend that method.

5. Lightly anneal the necks of the cases every 3rd loading or so with very expensive brass. Every 4th or 5th with less expensive brass. When I say lightly I mean really lightly since it is a regular operation.

6. Don't crimp the case unless necessary for some functional reason (tube magazine or recoil setback). Even then don't crimp the hell out of it just because you can.

7. Keep your brass off the ground and keep it clean. Wipe off finger prints before your store it.

8. Wash it with warm soapy water before loading, rinse in hot water and then rinse in 90% or 99% isopropyl alcohol to remove the water and dry quickly. Do not tumble unless necessary. keep it clean and tumbling is not necessary ever.

Using these techniques or "as many as possible" esecially good chamber and die fit as well as mild loads and annealing of the necks will result in unreal case life. Basically your cases will last until seating of the primers wears out the primer pocket which will occur at between 50 and 100 loads.
If you happen to start out with a smaller diameter primer than average you can then switch over to a fatter brand and keep loading.

I find Federal and Remington primers to be of average size with Winchester larger.
If Remingtons and Federals get loose I can switch to Winchester for a lot more loads.

Once you have learned to extend the life of a case for so long you will tend to value them even more.

It is very simple really.
Choose a low pressure cartridge(no overbore stuff) and use starting loads.
Use standard chambers and not tight ones.
Use a small base resizing die.
Brass will last a million times.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It is very simple really.
Choose a low pressure cartridge(no overbore stuff) and use starting loads.
Use standard chambers and not tight ones.
Use a small base resizing die.
Brass will last a million times.

Blastaway.
Your comments defy logic.
A standard chamber and a small base die will result in extra sizing of the brass and reduction of case life - and no million loads for sure.
Perhaps you should stick to the rudiments of learning iron sights before you start screwing up handloads.

By small base die I mean a shoulder bump die.
A tight chamber requires a full length sizing die or a special die built to bump the shoulder.
An ordinary shoulder bump die will not be able to resize it small enough to fit in a tight chamber after about 5 firings.
You will need to re-adjust your load or you will have excessive pressures.In other words you are creating a new cartridge in a sense.
You will also need to trim like crazy with a tight chamber.
A simple factory chambered 308 with a Redding bushing die set will make the brass last a very long time.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
By small base die I mean a shoulder bump die.
A tight chamber requires a full length sizing die or a special die built to bump the shoulder.
An ordinary shoulder bump die will not be able to resize it small enough to fit in a tight chamber after about 5 firings.
You will need to re-adjust your load or you will have excessive pressures.In other words you are creating a new cartridge in a sense.
You will also need to trim like crazy with a tight chamber.
A simple factory chambered 308 with a Redding bushing die set will make the brass last a very long time.

Blastaway
Comeback when you know what you mean.
A tight chamber and a die that matches are a pair of specifically designed and manufactured components that happen for a reason.
Even the term "tight chamber" means nothing specific and can be a chamber that is on the minimum end of SAAMI tolerances.

I do not have any issues with my brass.They last forever and I do nothing you mention.It also cost me much cheaper.To me it seems you are going about it the wrong way and spending all that time accomplishing nothing.You can keep your crappy method.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I do not have any issues with my brass.They last forever and I do nothing you mention.It also cost me much cheaper.To me it seems you are going about it the wrong way and spending all that time accomplishing nothing.You can keep your crappy method.

Blastaway you just followed me here out of embarrassment over you stupid postings in big bore. Go way and comeback when you can shoot a well as my grandmother.

BTW I bet you do not have any problems because you cannot tell a problem from shinola. If you have no brass problems it is largely due to accident and not because of intelligence.
My suggestions are all to be taken with a grain of salt since you cannot use all of them unless you design the chamber and dies to work together and I know you have never done that.

I have used two rifles with chambers each designed by the gunsmiths themselves.I saw that after the fifth firing my Redding shoulder bump die would not be able to resize them enough to fit back in my chamber.I told this to the smith and he was surprised and to my astonishment he did not have a solution.I went out and bought a full length die and hoped that it would solve that issue and it did.I asked the smith if he knew where I could find a die that would resize the cases so that they fit because I did not want to buy new cases after the fifth firing and he did not have anything to say.The case length would increas like crazy with only one or two firings even though I backed down 4 grains of powder in my loads.I had none of these issues with a standard chamber and my brass lasted more firings than I cared to count.Also the rifle with the standard chamber was more accurate!

I always say I am going to count the number of times I reload a piece of brass. I always loose count due to loading a small batch before the whole lot is empty. I figure due to the fact I shoot as much as I want and my brass seldom has needed replaced. I am getting my moneys worth. Maybe I loose one here and there mostly because of poor handling of empty's that get the mouth crushed at the range.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
I always say I am going to count the number of times I reload a piece of brass. I always loose count due to loading a small batch before the whole lot is empty. I figure due to the fact I shoot as much as I want and my brass seldom has needed replaced. I am getting my moneys worth. Maybe I loose one here and there mostly because of poor handling of empty's that get the mouth crushed at the range.

I think most of us have the same experience. In normal circumstances with just a little care brass lasts so long it's cost is a non issue.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
I always say I am going to count the number of times I reload a piece of brass. I always loose count due to loading a small batch before the whole lot is empty. I figure due to the fact I shoot as much as I want and my brass seldom has needed replaced. I am getting my moneys worth. Maybe I loose one here and there mostly because of poor handling of empty's that get the mouth crushed at the range.

I think most of us have the same experience. In normal circumstances with just a little care brass lasts so long it's cost is a non issue.

From your post above on what you do to your brass you do not seem to have the same experience.

SR4759,

I'm using a redding type s FL bushing die for my 7mm rem mag and I'm thinking about switching to a neck sizing die but my FL die doesn't set the shoulder back at all so will a neck die be that much better?

Also, I load at or near max book value to get my 168gr VLD to 1000+ yards so that is a limiting factor.

I'm not very knowledgable with respect to gun smiting, what do you mean design a chamber with 0.002-0.003" of clearance? I use Douglas Barrels and 700 trued actions for my gun builds and my gun smith headspaces them to 0.002" I believe - they shoot under 1/2 moa but I'm not sure how that combo affects the brass life. Can I specify a chamber size for the barrel manufacture or will they not deviate from SAAMI spec?

As for annealing I've read several articles on it and it seems to be very hard to get the brass to right temp for the right amount of time so annealing actually takes place, how do you anneal your cases?

For cleaning I start tumbling after sizing then I have to wash in soapy water to get all of the media dust out of the inside of the cases and then dry with a hair dryer but it seems like there is a lot of fouling/media gunk still left in my cases...you suggest I was with water after sizing then wash with alcohol? Do you ever tumble?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
By small base die I mean a shoulder bump die.
A tight chamber requires a full length sizing die or a special die built to bump the shoulder.
An ordinary shoulder bump die will not be able to resize it small enough to fit in a tight chamber after about 5 firings.
You will need to re-adjust your load or you will have excessive pressures.In other words you are creating a new cartridge in a sense.
You will also need to trim like crazy with a tight chamber.
A simple factory chambered 308 with a Redding bushing die set will make the brass last a very long time.

shootaway, like others have said please get things right before posting misinformation where others are asking questions and relying on correct and factual answers.

Small base dies are made for cartridges commonly used in semi-autos, pumps and lever actions and do as their name says, size down the base of the cartridge to minimum specs to ensure easy chambering in the above mentioned firearm types.
For you alone the base of the cartridge is its 'bum' not its shoulder area!!!!

Gilk

For hunting ammo careful set up of the FL sizing die to just size the case enough to fit a chamber, and annealing every so often will give the longest case life while ensuring the ammo fits every-time. For belted cases do the same and set the die to allow the case to chamber on the shoulder and not the belt i.e. just the faintest snug feel as the bolt is closed on a resized case.

Of course high pressure loads in any cartridge will shorten case life but then with some cartridges such as the magnums and long range heavy hitting others, to benefit from high velocity and heavy bullets you have to accept case life will not be the best. There is not much point in having a high intensity cartridge and loading it down for hunting, may as well just have a standard cartridge in that calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
By small base die I mean a shoulder bump die.
A tight chamber requires a full length sizing die or a special die built to bump the shoulder.
An ordinary shoulder bump die will not be able to resize it small enough to fit in a tight chamber after about 5 firings.
You will need to re-adjust your load or you will have excessive pressures.In other words you are creating a new cartridge in a sense.
You will also need to trim like crazy with a tight chamber.
A simple factory chambered 308 with a Redding bushing die set will make the brass last a very long time.

You can do a search Redding Small Base body sizer and they have them from 6ppc,6BR,6x284,284,6.5x284,223,260,308 and 30-06 for bolt action rifles. They make 223,308,6ppc and 6BR in a Small Base Type S Full Length also and I have one in 6ppc and 6BR plus body dies for my 284,223 and 30-06.

As OP mention about match shooters getting 30 plus reloads it happens.

wow.
the first thingi figured out when i designed my wild-cat was how to adjust the headspace issue that might crop up between the die set and the chamber.
it is super high tech so follow along.
a shell holder
a grinder
30 seconds

man.

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
By small base die I mean a shoulder bump die.
A tight chamber requires a full length sizing die or a special die built to bump the shoulder.
An ordinary shoulder bump die will not be able to resize it small enough to fit in a tight chamber after about 5 firings.
You will need to re-adjust your load or you will have excessive pressures.In other words you are creating a new cartridge in a sense.
You will also need to trim like crazy with a tight chamber.
A simple factory chambered 308 with a Redding bushing die set will make the brass last a very long time.

You can do a search Redding Small Base body sizer and they have them from 6ppc,6BR,6x284,284,6.5x284,223,260,308 and 30-06 for bolt action rifles. They make 223,308,6ppc and 6BR in a Small Base Type S Full Length also and I have one in 6ppc and 6BR plus body dies for my 284,223 and 30-06.

As OP mention about match shooters getting 30 plus reloads it happens.

I was correct it is called a small base body sizing die.Like I said it could not size my case small enough to fit in the chambers.I see they make another one -a small base full length die.I have not tried that.I have never had an issue with a small base die and have used one in for nearly all of my rifles.As far as shooters getting 30 reloads I get more with a standard chamber and my dies.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
wow.
the first thingi figured out when i designed my wild-cat was how to adjust the headspace issue that might crop up between the die set and the chamber.
it is super high tech so follow along.
a shell holder
a grinder
30 seconds

man.

It is not a question of the small base die not sizing far down enough.It sizes all the way down to the rim.I cant see what grinding the shellholder down will accomplish.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
By small base die I mean a shoulder bump die.
A tight chamber requires a full length sizing die or a special die built to bump the shoulder.
An ordinary shoulder bump die will not be able to resize it small enough to fit in a tight chamber after about 5 firings.
You will need to re-adjust your load or you will have excessive pressures.In other words you are creating a new cartridge in a sense.
You will also need to trim like crazy with a tight chamber.
A simple factory chambered 308 with a Redding bushing die set will make the brass last a very long time.

shootaway, like others have said please get things right before posting misinformation where others are asking questions and relying on correct and factual answers.

Small base dies are made for cartridges commonly used in semi-autos, pumps and lever actions and do as their name says, size down the base of the cartridge to minimum specs to ensure easy chambering in the above mentioned firearm types.
For you alone the base of the cartridge is its 'bum' not its shoulder area!!!!

Gilk

For hunting ammo careful set up of the FL sizing die to just size the case enough to fit a chamber, and annealing every so often will give the longest case life while ensuring the ammo fits every-time. For belted cases do the same and set the die to allow the case to chamber on the shoulder and not the belt i.e. just the faintest snug feel as the bolt is closed on a resized case.

Of course high pressure loads in any cartridge will shorten case life but then with some cartridges such as the magnums and long range heavy hitting others, to benefit from high velocity and heavy bullets you have to accept case life will not be the best. There is not much point in having a high intensity cartridge and loading it down for hunting, may as well just have a standard cartridge in that calibre.

You are not that bright are you?

For best brass life

Do not over work your brass.....size to min and only bump the shoulder just a bit

I use .005 as a max shoulder re-set

Max hi-pres loads will cut back on brass life

I also aneal before the 4th loading

quote:

Originally posted by gilk:
SR4759,

I'm using a redding type s FL bushing die for my 7mm rem mag and I'm thinking about switching to a neck sizing die but my FL die doesn't set the shoulder back at all so will a neck die be that much better?

Also, I load at or near max book value to get my 168gr VLD to 1000+ yards so that is a limiting factor.

I'm not very knowledgable with respect to gun smiting, what do you mean design a chamber with 0.002-0.003" of clearance? I use Douglas Barrels and 700 trued actions for my gun builds and my gun smith headspaces them to 0.002" I believe - they shoot under 1/2 moa but I'm not sure how that combo affects the brass life. Can I specify a chamber size for the barrel manufacture or will they not deviate from SAAMI spec?
What I was referring to is designing your own chamber dimensions. This would normally require a custom reamer. It is very common practice for benchrest shooters. It is a way to reduce the amount of expansion of the case when the round is fired. The clearance is the diametral clerarance. The headspace that your gunsmith provides is only to permit use of factory ammo. If you are using a custom chamber then the chamber and dies are dimensioned to work with the brass you plan to use. A custom chamber is an extreme measure and is not practical many times but it help brass last longer.

As for annealing I've read several articles on it and it seems to be very hard to get the brass to right temp for the right amount of time so annealing actually takes place, how do you anneal your cases?

I anneal my brass using a common propane torch. They are held in a case spinner in a battery powered drill. The color I anneal to is a wet appearing pale silver blue. If you want more detail PM me.

For cleaning I start tumbling after sizing then I have to wash in soapy water to get all of the media dust out of the inside of the cases and then dry with a hair dryer but it seems like there is a lot of fouling/media gunk still left in my cases...you suggest I was with water after sizing then wash with alcohol? Do you ever tumble?

I try to keep my brass off the ground when possible and keep it clean. I ften wipe the fresh soot off the neck before it become hard to remove. To protect my dies I wash the brass to insure it has no grit, dirt or foreign matter in it or on it. The black carbon residue on the inside is ignored. After washing with soapy water they are rinsed to carry away the loosened crud. The alcohol rinse is a bit of a convenience. The alcohol removes the remaining water and dries rapidly minimizing water spotting. I do tumble brass as a remedial measure. That is I only use tumbling on brass that has gotten badly tarnished or corroded. I buy a lot of once fired cases in large quantities. There are often some tarnished cases that need tumbling to remove the discoloration. I try to avoid tumbling if I can. Some tumbling media leaves behind dust and rouge. Some particles are small enough to plug flash holes. If I keep my brass clean I can avoid tumbling and the work and handling that goes along with it.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
I always say I am going to count the number of times I reload a piece of brass. I always loose count due to loading a small batch before the whole lot is empty. I figure due to the fact I shoot as much as I want and my brass seldom has needed replaced. I am getting my moneys worth. Maybe I loose one here and there mostly because of poor handling of empty's that get the mouth crushed at the range.

I think most of us have the same experience. In normal circumstances with just a little care brass lasts so long it's cost is a non issue.

From your post above on what you do to your brass you do not seem to have the same experience.

Blastaway,
Try reading this sentence again

>>>Using these techniques or "as many as possible" esecially good chamber and die fit as well as mild loads and annealing of the necks will result in unreal case life.<<<<

Do you get it now?

I just don't worry about it.

I just load it shoot until it fails or I lose it then buy some more.

The guns I shoot the most the brass is the cheapest.223 30-06 308.

The rest well I just don't shoot as much.

For practice does it really make a whole lot of differants what rifle you shoot.

The fundamentals are the same. If I decide to take a specific rifle on a trip I'll shoot that one a bit before I leave.

Dosen't really make much differants if I shoot my 308 cheap brass rather then my 300wm exspensive brass.

If I decide I need abit more range time with one I'll shoot it. But for lots of practice I pick the cheapest to shoot most of the time.

Breath, trigger control, sight picture all the same.

p dog shooter,

what kind of brass are you shooting and how many firings do you get from it for each caliber? are you using max loads or reduce ones?

I've done the same thing for past 7-8 years and only shot a few rounds occasionally but I'm making a move to long range shooting and planing on competing in matches and practice for that takes a few more rounds and more expensive components.

Depends on the cailber.

Plus it depends on how many guns one has to shoot and how may cailbers.

if you only have one gun and cailber one would use that brass a whole lot.

If one has many guns and calibers one can shoot a lot with out using the same brass much.

If one has a lot of brass say 5 to 10 thousands rounds of it then ones brass doesn't get use much.

Lets say you plan on shooting 25000 rounds but only have a 1000 brass you would need 25 loading per each case.

But it you had 5000 brass one would only need 5 loading per case.

But if you spread that 25000 rounds over 10 diffeant cailbers thats 2500 per cailber 500 brass each gives you 5 loadings per case.

In my most shot cailbers I have lots of brass. I can shoot many thousands of rounds each and never have more then 2 to 3 loadings per case.

I am not very picky on my brass I shoot winchester remington federal and any thing I can get my hands on.

Lets take one 223 most likely have right around 10000 rounds of brass with a triming I'll get around 10 reloads per case that 100000 shots. thats if I don't get any other brass.

So when I say I don't count reloadings per case I mean it .


When I only had one or two rifles and 100 or so rounds of brass I did.

I decided its just easier to get more brass.

If I was shooting something with real exspensive brass 3 or 4 bucks a shot I would be really careful with it.

But then one most likely would not be shooting it a lot.

As far as life of caseings for me 10+ for non belted 5+ for belted and I don't take care of it expect for triming it once in a while.

For revolver light loads 10 to 20 for mag loads 10.

Semi auto I lose it long before it wears out.

These are a good guess I use them until they are junk or I lose it.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
wow.
the first thingi figured out when i designed my wild-cat was how to adjust the headspace issue that might crop up between the die set and the chamber.
it is super high tech so follow along.
a shell holder
a grinder
30 seconds

man.

It is not a question of the small base die not sizing far down enough.It sizes all the way down to the rim.I cant see what grinding the shellholder down will accomplish.

shootaway stop and think a little. Lamar is quite right in what he has said and this has been said by quite a few experience handloaders before on this forum. No full length die in a press sizes right down to the rim as you are saying, how can it when the rim and a small portion of the base are sitting the shell holder. The interface between the shell holder and the die mouth determines exactly how much of the base of the case is forced into the die. As Lamar points out, sometimes with some die and shellholder setups and tight chambers, this is not enough to size the case fully to fit the chamber or bump the shoulder back if required to do the same.

Carefully grinding the face of the shellholder can achieve this. Don't grind the die mouth, a shell holder is cheaper if you get it wrong. Just close you eyes, stop abusing everyone for a few seconds and visualise it, you should get it like the rest of us!!!