Hi guys,

Great forum! Been lurking for quite a while and have learned a lot from you guys.

Gun: Encore Pro Hunter frame with a custom MGM heavy 24" 7mm-08 barrel.
Loads: Norma brass, WLR primers, Varget under 140 Accubond.

I started at 38 gr and worked up

Load Results:

42.0 gr = 2810 avg vel
42.5 gr = 2838 avg vel
43.0 gr = 2879 avg vel

OK so here is my question: The best accuracy is with the 43.0 gr which is over the max listed in the Nosler manual at 42, but I know of several friends who shoot the 43 with no issues in their 708s. The primers are a little flattened at 43 gr and about one out of five stick slightly while ejecting a fired round when opening the gun. So I think I'm near the max and wouldn't go any higher. There are no other pressure signs that I can see. Am I safe using this hunting load? Will doing so put extra stress on the gun? I would be happy with the minor decrease in velocity with 42 gr but the groups are much better with 43.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Jim

If you get the best accuracy at 43 grains, I would probably stick to that load but definitely wouldn't go any higher. I've had factory loads that were a little sticky in an Encore.

Varget is supposed to be pretty temperature stable but just the same, if your loads were worked up in cool weather, I would reevaluate them in warm to hot weather as well. Also, when operating at a maximum load, if you change any component (case, bullet or primer), go down a couple of grains and work back up.

Welcome to the board, by the way.

Does your velocity of 2879 fps exceed Noslers Varget max load velocity?

til later

The max velocity listed for 42 gr. is 2849, so yes it does exceed it.

Is it safe? Well, it's certainly not going to "blow the gun up", or likely even pierce a primer.

The question is not safety, but sustainability and functionality: Will your brass last for more than a couple of firings without the primer pockets loosening? Could the ocassional sticky extraction cause you a problem at some point? Only you can answer these two questions. Besides, I think that if you will shoot several groups with both 42 and 43 grains, you will find no difference in favor of the higher loading.

With an action like the TC, you have very little extracting power compared to a bolt, so running pressures that cause sticky extraction, even if only ocassional, is asking for trouble. Think in terms of a deer struck in the leg with the first shot hobbling away while you dig for your pocket knife to try to pry a shell from the chamber.

How many rounds did you fire of each loading ?
How or did you clean between loadings ?.
Was this an average of number ? of rounds fired ?.
Flattened primers are a sure sign of excessive pressure .

Answer all the above questions please before proceeding with 43.0 grain loads .

I wouldn't want " Sticky Loads " for hunting or any other shooting .
Stoncreek is right 42.0 or 43.0 grains most likely wouldn't make a real accuracy difference !. So why push it ?.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

it sure sounds OK, but i wouldn't load up a mess of rounds until i tried the load in hot weather. I've had loads that worked fine in the winter and would be excessive in the summer

So at the max or just below the max SAAMI rated pressure level for the 7mm-08,Nosler got 2849fps using 42gr of Varget in a SAAMI standard minimum spec chamber/barrel. Your chamber/barrel could not quite match Noslers max pressure/velocity with 42.5gr of Varget@2838fps. The reasons could be quite a few different things such as component differences or a slightly larger than minimum spec chamber/barrel on your rifle,what ever the cause,your 2879fps load exceeded Noslers pressure/velocity and therefore the SAAMI rated pressure level for the 7mm-08. You've said you have some pressure signs. I'd say if you were to shoot 10 shots for a velocity average you'd be matching Noslers max. I've developed loads by using Noslers max pressures/velocities as my limit for years. Most of the time,but not all,I'll stop short of their max because I've reached an accuracy level I am satisfied with and I'm kinda particular. Now G brought up the subject of weather temps. He's RIGHT!! I like to work my loads up in the heat of the summer but will check them in the colder temps of hunting season. Should you back off a bit? I think you've already answered that question yourself.

til later

quote:

Originally posted by Jim54:
The max velocity listed for 42 gr. is 2849, so yes it does exceed it.

Every rifle is diff. so only you will know if your load in your rifle is within acceptable pressure range. Sticky bolt lift says you are running the edge. Keep an eye on primer pockets, if they start to enlarge after 2-3 firings, you should probably back off abit. Reloading guides are just that, guides. Unless they use your rifle to work loads up, you have to head the cautions but it's still your rig.

try 42.7 and 42.8 grains

and/or try the 42.5 grains again but change your seating depth of the bullet.

As one who actually shoots Encores in a variety of chamberings including 7mm/08, I would make the following observations:

1. Sticky extraction in an Encore means something different in an Encore than in a bolt gun. In a bolt action firearm, a sticky bolt lift means the pressures are excessive and the load should be reduced. In an Encore extraction that is a little sticky means a maximum load is being approached but the load isn't necessarily excessive. I've had factory ammo in which extraction was a little sticky.

2. The velocity obtained is entirely irrelevent if the pressure is OK. A 30 fps either way from the published data is inconsequential. That much difference could occur from a different lot of powder, different humidity, different temperature, etc.

3. Encores handle full house loads very well. I don't download cartridges for my Encores at all. My loads are safe but certainly not wimpy.

4. It's true that loads with higher pressure will have a negative effect on brass life. I'm willing to sacrifice some brass life for increased performance.

5. In a cartridge the size of 7mm/08, I would predict that changing a load by 0.1 or 0.2 grains will have no measurable effect on accuracy. My smallest increment of load change for this cartridge is 0.5 grains but each to his own; smaller increments won't hurt anything except some wasted bullets.

6. If accuracy is good at any of the powder weights tried, seating depth isn't the problem. Changing seating depth also changes pressure. If it's a little deeper, then pressures will be higher. If it's not as deep, then pressures will be less unless the bullet is abutting the lands in which case it could be a lot more. Changing seating depth can easily have as much or more effect on pressure than changing the powder charge by 0.1 grain.

As far as backing off the load is concerned, if I got equal accuracy at a slightly lower pressure then I would back off; I certainly would not increase the load further. If I truly got the best accuracy at the load where extraction was a tiny bit sticky, I might keep it there. I have had more than one Encore and Contender load where the best accuracy was at or near the maximum load.

Thanks for the input guys.

To answer a few of the questions:
They were average of 5 shot groups. I shot 5 load & seating depth combinations in the round robin fashion from a clean barrel with one initial fouling shot, letting the barrel cool twice.

I also found that as I seated the bullets deeper the velocities went down. From what I read isn't that the reverse of what you would expect? I was just off the lands with the first set and moved in .10 and .20. The velocities decreased and the accuracy decreased also. Even at the .20 off the lands this was still longer than the book OAL.

For example, the 43 gr loads went from an average of 2879 to 2847 by seating the bullet .20 deeper. I'm sure the longest ones were not against the lands to start with. With the Varget powder the Nosler manual says that the case is 93% full at 42 gr so the powder should not be compressed with any of the combinations I tried.

I guess that I'll try a few more depths with 42 - 43 and see how they group.

Thanks again,

Jim

Have you tried any other powders? You may not have even seen what this setup is capable of yet.

Not yet, I have considered an IMR any suggestions?

Jim,why not give RL-19 a try. No other powder came close:
Nosler #4 manual
Wiseman 26"bbl(min.specs)
case-Rem. primer-WLR powder-RL19

45gr 2692fps starting load
47gr 2807fps
49gr 2922fps max!!! 100% load density

I'd work up a grain at a time to 47gr,then half a grain. You've got 2" less bbl so you may not match Noslers velocity although I've got 2 .25-06 rifles,a 22" and 24" that avg.velocity is almost exact. Just remember WATCH THAT VELOCITY!!

I never claimed to be an expert but this system has worked for me!

til later

quote:

Jim,why not give RL-19 a try.

Just a note, here. I saw something a few days ago that indicated Alliant is dropping RL19 from their line up. Has anyone else seen information indicating this?

I love Alliant powders, Re19, 22, and 25.

But, if you are planning on going with IMR, try 4350 and 4064.

I haven't heard(read)a thing about it! Sure hope not!! The Reloader powders are top dog in ALOT calibers,especially with the heavy for caliber bullets. I'll keep an ear(eye)open!

til later

Well since you ask…

I will answer that I would back off no matter what gain I had in accuracy.

If your load exceeds the published max & your velocity exceeds the published max my bet is you are exceeding the max pressure too.

I agree the question is sustainability… a warmer day, a new “hotter†lot of powder or primers, bullets on the high side of acceptance, a small mistake in a powder charge… And you start with a high pressure.

You could have a problem…

I admit I am conservative but I would try a different powder before I would stay with a “Over Max†pressure.

Closer to the Lands the greater the pressure regardless of velocity .

So unless you have a pressure gauge , I would error on the side of caution .

No animal on the face of this planet , two legged or other wise ; ever knew the difference of 60 fps Dead is Dead !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Thanks guys, this has been very helpful.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim54:
...I also found that as I seated the bullets deeper the velocities went down. From what I read isn't that the reverse of what you would expect?

Hey Jim, It depends on how close to MAX you are for the Powder/Bullet combination, how far off the Lands the Bullet happens to be, and the shape(bottleneck, straight) of the Case all determine how repositioning the Bullet effects the Pressure. Sometimes Pressure will go Up and sometimes Down whichever way you move the Bullet.

But, it is impossible to know what the Pressure is by looking at Velocity anyhow, so don't get caught in that trap.

quote:

I was just off the lands with the first set and moved in .10 and .20. The velocities decreased and the accuracy decreased also. Even at the .20 off the lands this was still longer than the book OAL.

I've never had an Encore, but I did have a Contender and the distance to the Lands was very long in mine. Similar to the old Weatherby Freebore. T/C apparently does this to help hold the Pressure down, though I've never asked them.
-----

I'm not a fan of pushing the Contender/Encore Design to the extreme limits. They have an inherent Design concern for me that just does not need pushing - the small amount of steel left between the Scope Base "Holes" and the Chamber. A lot of firearms have a similar trait, but it just is not something I like to take to the edge.

So, I'm with the folks that discouraged the use of "Sticky" Loads.

Best of luck to you.

Encores shouldn't be any different, but I've never gotten as good accuracy with any bottle-necked case filled to 93% than one that was full or almost full. If it was me, I'd change the recipe until I found an accurate load with no high pressure signs.

Until the reloader is offered an affordable pressure gauge,I'm forced to use anything I can to produce a safe and reliable reload. Hopeflly it will be accurate and have decent velocity. I watch for high and low pressure signs both with the firearm and with the casing. Use to"try"measuring case heads for expansion but even today there's to much controversy about it FOR ME. I also use reloading manuals and a chronograph. I honestly believe that velocity can be used as one of the ways,in conjunction with the other signs,to determine if your entering dangerous territory. An adverse reading in that chronograph,whether velocity goes up or down while developing a load indicates TO ME that something needs adjusted or changed. I've found it particularly useful when changing powder lots. I learned before I got my chronograph back in the mid 80s to HOPEFULLY recognize pressure signs and of course saw them. No firearm problems luckily but pressure signs with the casing. Since I've started using a chronograph I can honestly say I've had no signs of pressure with my casings although I still continue to look. I get long case life as do the FEW others I reload for. I'm not saying that a chronograph is a cure all,but I don't believe it should be ignored. Reloading I've found is an on going learning process. I try to relate my experiences,good and bad,to others who ask questions and I'd be a fool to ignore any rebuttal to my procedures. As I said(typed)earlier until I have a reliable readout in PSI or what ever,I have no choice but to use EVERYTHING to reload SAFELY. That includes the advice of others. Anyone got some?

til later

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Just a note, here. I saw something a few days ago that indicated Alliant is dropping RL19 from their line up. Has anyone else seen information indicating this?

From Ben Amonette...Ben.Amonette@ATK.COM at Alliant when I sent an email about this:

quote:

We are not going to discontinue RL 19. Thanks for your interest in our powder and have a nice day.

Ben

THANKS for the GOOD NEWS DOC!

Update:

I loaded some IMR 4350 and got some very good results.
140 Accubond / worked up to 47gr = 2824 fps no pressure signs and easy three shot groups within 1 inch @ 100yds. Much better than any combination I tried with Varget.

While this is certainly good enough for my hunting application,I'm going to try some RL-19 & maybe 15 also.

Thanks again for the input.

Jim

I hope I am not being to repetitve, but here goes. First the Encore does not show pressure like a bolt action. If you were shooting your 43 grain loads through a bolt action you would very likely also see brass extruded into the ejector. This would confirm your over pressure load. Second. Try reloader 19 as has been suggested. In one of my rifles it gives outstanding accuracy, better velocity and lower pressure. Third I will repeat what others have said about hot weather. If you developed the load in cool temps it may blow holes in the primers on a hot day. Be safe, try a couple other powder or bullet combinations. There will be another accuracy sweet spot without having to push the outer limit of pressure. DW

I don't have a 7-08 but have a 260 and 243 and found pressure signes in both using Varget, and both under book max, both my 243 and 260 really shoot well with RL-15 vs RL-19 IMO I think 19 is a bit slow for that case but each rifle is different.

I'll try the RL-19. Any concerns about compressing the powder that much?

Also, of IMR 4350 & RL-19 is one more stable with varying temps? I'd heard that Varget was very temp. stable that's why I started there.

Also, also. I ran some Fed Prem 140 Nosler Partitions through the chrony and was surprised to see a very consistent 2900 fps which is much faster than most maxs listed and no signs of pressure. I pulled a bullet and found only 42 grains of something. How do they do it??

Thanks

Jim