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One of Us |
Guys, I've been reloading with my new 44 Magnum Ruger Redhawk and found a very accurate load with A2400 and the 240gr. Nosler JSP. Grouping and velocity aside, these are repeatedly jumping the crimp when I fire a full cylinder. Not bad enough to lock up the revolver, mind you, but any movement is bad movement. I'm looking for insight or suggestions on how hard I should be crimping these cases and what another issue might be. To clarify: Nosler 240 JSP Starline new cases COAL = 1.585" Crimped (pretty hard) using Lee FCD Below is a photo of one of my reloads on the left next to a factory 240gr. load on the right. Seating depth to the cannelure looks about the same and there's a very evident "belt" from the FCD on my cases. Factory loads don't move, but my handloads do. I also went through and re-crimped them harder to help the issue, but it didn't do much. The second image is a closeup of the crimp on my reloads. They look fine to me which is why I can't understand the movement. The heck is the problem? Handload on left, factory on right  Closeup of my handload crimp  _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | ||
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| One of Us |
good question. i'm jumping in here just because i wanna be kept in the loop. i can see that the factory crimp has a heavy roll crimp and the reload has a "lee" crimp. also the factory looks like it may have a thicker wall case. other than those observations i can't wait for an expert to jump in here. inquiring minds wanna know! | |||
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One of Us |
Consider that a really heavy crimp can actually Loosen a bullet, by bulging the brass under the crimp. I have never had a bullet jump. even on 500 Linebaugh loads and those things kick about 4 times more than a 44 mag. I would concentrate on the OD of my expander plug instead of the crimp. (I think you need smaller one.) | |||
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| One of Us |
the OD of he plug or how far its going into the case to adjust flare. | |||
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| new member |
Staring at the second picture of your crimp it appears excessive. I can see a line/ring of shaved brass and as dpcd mentioned I would say its bulging the brass under the crimp. What puzzles me is if you are using a Lee factory crimp die the die should squeeze the case around the bullet which would rule out bulging and an over size expander. I use 23 grns of H110 with a 265 bullet and not had one move. | |||
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| One of Us |
The OD of the plug; the flare is not important to the issue here. Did you resize brass or is this new; sometimes that might not be tight enough. Resize them, reload them but use a bit less crimp, and see what happens. | |||
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One of Us |
Your crimp is shaving and thinning the case mouth which therefore will not have the same pull resistance to the forward momentum of the bullet under recoil. The factory roll crimp has the full thickness of case mouth as resistance to bullet momentum. Don't like that type of crimp die. I loaded 44 Magnum for my Ruger 10/44 and even loaded 265gr bullets and had no problem with bullet movement in the tube magazine. Opposite forces to what you have in a revolver cylinder but nevertheless needed a good crimp in the Ruger and had one with my home made dies. | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks for all the replies, everyone. So, the consensus here seems to be "less is more" in this case? I didn't load a million of these rounds, so shooting them as-is and reloading with a less-severe crimp is pretty easy to do. As others have said, the Lee FCD won't allow a case to bulge because it has a carbide sizing ring at the entrance/exit that smooths out the case wall before and after crimping. I'll agree I don't like the way the crimp looks, and it seemed excessive. I also am pretty sure I'm not over-expanding the case when prepping, as I go incrementally until the bullet barely snaps into the case. You almost can't see the flare of the case mouth unless you compare it to another, unflared case. These are all brand new, FL resized Starline cases, so I wouldn't expect any issues with overall sizing. I have some more reloading to do this week and will try the same combination with a less generous crimp to hopefully employ better neck tension to hold the bullet in place. Results to follow. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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| Administrator |
The camp die on your reloads looks like damaging the case mouth?? Never seen anything like it. | |||
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| Moderator |
Neck tension holds much better than crimp ever will. I suggest you get the belling plug from a .41 Mag die and use it to bell the case mouths just enough to insert bullets. I use a .44 mag plug for loading .454 Casull rounds. Also, as previously mentioned, resize your new brass before loading. I'm not a fan of the Lee FCD. You can get a better crimp from the seating and crimping die, just perform each step separately to prevent case wall buckling. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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| One of Us |
How do you know you aren't over expanding the ID? As I said, the plugs are not tapered; except for the very top sharp angle, and it doesn't matter how far you push it into the case; you get the same result. Too far is not the issue; anyway, stop crimping so much. Your technique is good but can't fix a too large expander plug. I do not recommend not using an expander plug at all; some dies really make the cases very small. | |||
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| One of Us |
You do not mention the brand of the sizer and expander die. If none of the issues above are present, it could also be that the expander expands the body of the case too much and thereby giving the case less grip on the bullet. Will it help to work of the diameter of the expander die a little bit? | |||
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| One of Us |
IMO. your ruining everything with the FCD. pull a bullet [the one in the pic will work] now take some measurements. | |||
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| One of Us |
The dies are the Hornady Custom Grade fare. I've had no issues with the other 4 calibers I load with them, so I'll try adjusting the flare die and dialing waaaay back on the crimp to keep better neck tension. I have about two hundred once fired cases I can use for testing. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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| One of Us |
I have had that issue in the past with some .357 mag loads that I worked up. I never did figure it out I'm interested in what you get with this one. Please keep us posted. Thanks, | |||
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| One of Us |
So true^^^^ I went through this very thing with a paltry little 357 mag decades and decades ago. The quick, easy and correct answer is as stated above. The plug was too large (not the bell expander part of the plug as that can be adjusted up or down) and it removed all the bullet "grip" and no amount of crimp would overcome the loose bullet tension. A quick trip to the lathe was all it took and I've never looked back! Zeke | |||
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| One of Us |
OK, I think I have this licked. I discovered and checked a few things based on some observations of loaded ammo and prepped cases and the insight of those of you who have responded here. 1. I resized and prepped a lot of 1x fired brass today. I did the usual prep work, FL resize, trimmed to a uniform length, and cleaned them. 2. After cleaning, the case mouths looked good, like new, and I carefully redid my expander die while measuring dimensions the whole time. I wanted to get more precise with expanding the case mouths to ensure maximum neck tension. My original cases were expanded to .004, which is on the high side. I adjusted the die now to only go to .002, which was the minimum amount that would allow a bullet to snap into the case mouth. 3. I'm going to test some loads with these cases on Monday and will measure and monitor things as I go. I readjusted my Lee FCD to give a nice roll crimp with no more banding or weirdness at the case mouth. Looks like factory now. One of the other things to which I should have paid more attention when loading my original batch was how they went in to and out of the FCD. The carbide sizer ring is there for the occasional case that might need some tweaking, but all of my original batch was being caught by the sizing ring. Too big in the neck area due to expander die being adjusted incorrectly. Anyway, I'll report back after Monday's session. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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| One of Us |
I'm sorry; that measurement, the flare or bell, has Nothing to do with bullet tension. Nothing. Too much flare caused your rounds not to go into the crimp die but does not affect neck tension. Just stop crimping so much and you will be fine. | |||
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| one of us |
I use a regular RCBS crimp die and tried the following test: Loaded up 18 rounds. First 6 rounds I used 1/2 turn of the crimp die, next six rounds I turned the die down 3/4 turn, last six rounds got a full turn down of the crimp die. I marked one primer with a black sharpie out of each of the three batches of six. I measured and documented the COAL of those marked rounds. Next, I loaded the rounds in the revolver so the marked ones would fire last. After firing 5 rounds, I would stop, remove the unfired marked round and measure its COAL comparing it to what it was before I started shooting. I found the marked rounds all moved as much as 2 thousandths. I stuck with 1/2-3/4 turn of the crimp die as this held the bullets just as well as a full turn of the die with less damage to the brass. You could try something similar to see if there is a sweet spot on your crimp die for minimum to no bullet movement. | |||
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| One of Us |
That's kind of what I'm working on now. Good point. I have some rounds loaded and will test them tomorrow to see how my newly-adjusted crimp settings play out. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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| One of Us |
The OP doesn’t seem to understand what many here are trying to tell him. Die adjustment is NOT the problem! The expander plug is TOO LARGE in diameter, not run into the case too deeply. Either use a .41 caliber expander plug just to bell the case, or reduce the expander plug diameter by removing metal. No adjustment of the current die will fully solve his problem. . | |||
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One of Us |
Clayman, As others have said, neck tension is more important than crimping and over crimping, "hurts" neck tension. Measure your expander ball and report back. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Hi guys, Yes, I understand completely what you're all advising. Your points are all well-taken and being put into place as I change the setup for this caliber. The Hornady dies I'm using don't allow the expander die to be disassembled; it's all milled from one piece of metal. This also makes measuring the expander ball very difficult with the tools I have on hand. I tested some loads today (different bullet, same revolver) using the new, lighter crimp and things went fine. Accurate loads and no movement in the cases. By dialing back my expander die and only using it to essentially flare the case mouth slightly, NOT actually expand the case, I'm assuming better neck tension with my next batch of reloads. That combined with the more sensible crimp should get me back in shape. I should also mention I'm loading 38/357 using the same setup but with RCBS dies instead. I've never had the issue with any of those cases, and the crimps and case mouths look factory-perfect. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading 44 Mag Handloads Jumping Crimp
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