Hi,

I have something that's bothering me that I was hoping someone could help with. I have a new Hornady lock-n-load press (my first press, so I have nothing to compare it to) - as I take the handle to the end of its travel, the ram rises and then falls back just a fraction of an inch. This is fine for resizing, but when I come to seat bullets I find that it re-seats my precisely measured reference dummy rounds. Am I doing something wrong? Is this a flaw with the Hornady press, or how I'm using it? If not, does anyone have any suggestion as to how to get around this? I've tried adjusting the seater die with the ram at what appears to be the highest point of travel, but I need three hands to do this properly, and the whole process just seems clumsy and wrong.

Thanks,
Bruce

Bruce it seems you have the press set to toggle over the top of the stroke.
Try turning in the die untill it touches the shell holder just before it traveles over the top.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
Bruce it seems you have the press set to toggle over the top of the stroke.
Try turning in the die untill it touches the shell holder just before it traveles over the top.

I don't see how that can work when seating a bullet???????????? roger

I would n`t set to toggle over when seating unless you want a hell of a crimp on that round. Most press`es toggle over the trick is to take it in acount when setting the die.

I`ve found a easy way to set the seater that someone posted on one of the boards some time ago.
Set the die body where you want it and lock the ring and don`t change it, ever.
seat your bullet to the desired depth lock the stem in place and measure the TOTAL lenght of the die body and seating stem. Record the lenght and put it with the box of bullets you`re useing. When you go to load with that bullet set the OAL of the die and stem to that same lenght and you`ll be back at the depth you originally had.
If you change lot # of bullet remeasure the first loaded round to insure the bullet is still the same geometery. It`s prudent to do this anyway to double check the OAL when ever you start to load after re-adjusting the seater. Change the lock ring on the die body and you`ll have to start over.

yeh, bart, See what ye meean..
When i wrote it it sounded good.

Thanks Joe, I'll give that a try. You're right, I don't want a crimp so can't set the shellholder to touch the die....

Bruce

Bruce,
I didn't answer before because I couldn't work out what you meant.
I don't think the seater dies are designed to touch the shell holder, only MAYBE the FLSize dies.
I think with the seater dies I just wind them down on a trimmed case until I feel something then back off a bit to get away from the crimp position.
All other adjustments for different bullets/seating depth is then done with the adjustment at the top of the seater die.
Or so I thought.
John L>

Bruce , if I interpret what you have written correctly then I believe there is a problem with your press . The ram should be at it's highest point when the handle is at the bottom of it's stroke . It shouldn't move down at all .At least that's the way my RCBS works .
BTW Ol'Joe's method is the same as mine for setting up dies to seat various bullets . It works well .

Bushchook,
Sure but then with your Reddings, what if you don't want to crimp, then wouldn't they be up off the shell holder ?

And I bought Hornady dies just to get the cheap "micro" measure adjustment for the top of the seater, as I don't need to take the die out of its press. The equivalent setup in Redding was hundreds of $ here.
John L>

JAL ,
You prompted me to read the instructions on my Redding dies and I find that the seating die should not be touching the shellholder . You'll notice that I have edited my above post .Thanks .
Looking at my Hornady (custom grade new dimension) and Redding seating dies there is virtually no difference in the way you fine tune seating depth . Main difference is the Hornady has a rubber O ring under the locknut on the seating plug . I haven't got the expensive competition Redding seating die either but you don't need to remove it from the press to adjust seating depth .
The thing I really like about the Redding is that the case is fully supported all the way down to the head when bullet seating . This should improve concentricity in theory at least .

BruceNZ, My guess is you have a faulty press. I had a well worn press, different make, that started letting the ram junp forward and down, just a tiny amount. Not good for accurate bullet seating.

quote:

Originally posted by BruceNZ:
as I take the handle to the end of its travel, the ram rises and then falls back just a fraction of an inch.

Many presses are designed to toggle over, nothing wrong with that.

When you adjust a die - in particular a seater, there is a "rough" and a "fine" adjustment - pardon my inadequate language here. The "rough" adjustment is done by adjusting the die in relationship to the highest point of the reloading ram - in your case just before the press toggles over. Read the die instructions for this adjustment. This is normally gets the die adjusted to a "precision" within 1/4 - 1/2". Set your die at this point, and forget the toggle over issue from now on, it is now largely irrelevant.

Most seating dies are adjusted to just NOT touch the ram at its highest point, to avoid the pressure of the ram damaging the die. But you have to read the exact set-up instructions for your type of die.

quote:

This is fine for resizing, but when I come to seat bullets I find that it re-seats my precisely measured reference dummy rounds.

With your die set up in relationship to the highest point of the ram, now comes the "fine" adjustment. This is normally done with some sort of a bullet seating stem inside the die. The seating stem may be directly visible on top of the die - and in this case is normally fixed with a nut. Or, in the case of more expensive dies, may hide behind a micrometer screw. But in either case the principle is the same.

From a base of the die setting achieved with your "rough" adjustment, you now need to set the seating stem to a point that will allow you to achieve the exact bullet seating depth you desire.

It sounds to me, forgive if I'm wrong, like you have done your "rough" adjustment and set up the die in relationship to the ram. But I don't see any indication of you having adjusted the seating stem??? You CAN leave the seating stem alone, and simply screw in the die to give you the desired seating depth. The drawback of this, is that the die thread is a lot coarser than the seating stem thread. So it is easier to adjust in small quantities with the seating stem.

There are cases in which the seating stem will not allow sufficient adjustment of seating depth in realtionship to your rough die adjustment. In that case, you probably need to change the rough adjustment a bit. Most rough adjustments have quite a bit of leeway in them. By far the most dies will have PLENTY adjustment leeway in the seating stem, though.

Or have I missed what it is you are doing?? It sounds like you are new at the game of reloading. That is OK, we have all been through that period. This is a great place to ask questions, you may even receive a sensible answer from time to time . It also sounds like you have not read your die instructions all that super carefully, but maybe I'm wrong here???

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by Bushchook:
You'll notice that I have edited my above post .Thanks .
.

I'm glad you mentioned that I thought I was going bonkers.

Sure, but I don't know if I explained my set up correctly. Hornady sell an "add on" bullet seating adjustment, which works like a micrometer and can be set to the measurements marked on it, and then reset accurately to another bullet type, etc.

MHo, good explanation but I didn't think the seating die its self was any adjustment except for crimp or non crimp. I believe the seater stem at the top should be used for bullet adjustments, and the die for "case" adjustments.
John L.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
MHo, good explanation but I didn't think the seating die its self was any adjustment except for crimp or non crimp. I believe the seater stem at the top should be used for bullet adjustments, and the die for "case" adjustments.
John L.

John, that is probably a correct observation. I never crimp with my seating die, so maybe I tend to ignore that side of die functionality. Should I decide I need a crimp (very rare), I'll most likely get a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

- mike

Thanks for your comments mho. Yes I am fairly new to reloading, but have cranked a few rounds out so far (successfully). A bit more info: I have a 30/06, and am wanting to try 5 different weight and style of bullet in this rifle, all of which have slightly different seating requirements. I have built up a reference dummy round for each bullet type, and written the C.O.L. on that round - the theory being that I can then just put the dummy round in the shellholder and adjust the seating stem to get me back to where I should be for that particular bullet. This all works in theory, but because of the toggle over effect, I'm actually altering my reference rounds when I try to adjust the seating stem, because I can't hold the arm in just the perfect spot. And of course the adjustment always makes the C.O.L. shorter....

I suspect I'm better off using Joe's suggestion - locking the lock ring in place for no crimp (and never ever adjusting it), and then measuring the length of the die for each given bullet seating position.

Bruce

Yep, I tried measuring the "stem" height above the die body for various bullets, and with a Vernier, got any amount of different readings.

And if just screwing down on a dummy round one could easily push the dummy down a bit. (Should have Lee crimpt it?)

Thats when I got the micro adjust top and haven't looked back.
John L.

Hmmm, maybe I'm just stuffed then.

Good point, will try the factory crimp die and see if that stops the bullet moving in my reference rounds.

Bruce

Bruce,

First off, are you actually trying to achieve a crimp?? If it was my .30-06, I would not crimp (except perhaps for use in a semi-auto). And if I wanted to crimp, I would do so with a separate die (Lee Factory Crimp). The crimp should be totally superfluous in a bolt-action for .30-06.

I can see from your last reply, that you are considering the use of a Lee Factory Crimp Die for use on your dummy rounds. I personally find this a poor solution. You want your dummy rounds to be seated with the same neck tension as your normal rounds, otherwise it gets hard to use the die setting from your dummies to your regular rounds. See further below. Again, I don't believe you need a crimp for your .30-06 except under exceptional circumstances (such as your bullets moving under recoil in your magazine). Even then, I would work towards loading without a crimp.

So, I would personally adjust the die (body) for seating without a crimp (read your die instructions how to do this). In general, you do this by screwing in your die while you hold your ram at the highest point with the other hand. That way you can use the highest ram position as a reference. Most likely your die instructions will tell you to keep the die just off the ram at its highest point. Thus far, you have only used two hands.

Now lock the die locking ring for the die body, and forget this part from now on.

Loosen your bullet seating stem and screw it (almost) all the way out. Now insert your dummy round into the shellholder, and again hold the ram at its highest point. With the other hand, screw in the bullet seating stem until it JUST touches the bullet of the dummy round. Now engage the lock nut on your bullet seating stem. This should also only require two hands.

Seat a bullet, measure it for OACL. If not exactly the length you want, make minor adjustments with the bullet seating stem. It can take a couple of tries, so I prefer to load for OACL a bit longer in the initial try, i.e. screw down your stem until it just touches the dummy round, and then screw it out 1/2-1 turn. Then make minor adjustments, while measuring the resulting OACL in between.

Don't forget, that when you measure OACL, the best way of doing so is by using a bullet comparator. That will allow you a reference to the point on the bullet ogive where the bullet is most likely to touch the lands. This as opposed to measuring directly over the point of the bullet, which is a poor reference point. Bullet points can vary quite drastically. Even with the best (factory) bullets and measuring with a bullet comparator, you have to expect a variance in OACL of maybe .002", so don't get all worked up if you find a bit of OACL variance.

That should be it. And it should only take a single pair of hands for each operation.

Good luck - mike

mho ,
Whilst many presses including my RCBS are designed to toggle over you will notice (if you unscrew the die) that even with this design the ram reaches it's highest point when the handle reaches it's absolute lowest point .
Whilst I don't have a press like Bruce's to look at I still think he has a press problem if that's not what happens with his .

I use a RCBS press but I use my Stoney Point and calibers to set my seating depth. I pull the handle all the way and then measure.

Using notes , I can repeat the last seating depth. That way I don't have to keep "dummy rounds"

My favorite dies is this RCBS competion die.