300 win mag remington 700 BDL
When i check factory ammo, it's around 3.310 -3.316.

reloading manual says 3.340 is OAL... where should a person seat the bullets to? I notice some in here say that they seat them .050 or .005 or something like that off the lands. How do you know how far it is to the lands of your rifle? I am all con-fuzzed on this one.

wtman, you need a tool like a Stoney point bullet seating depth gauge for an accurate assessment. Don't confuse OAL with seating a bullet "X" thousandths off the lands. The latter is measuring to the ogive of the bullet, not the tip. OAL is a SAAMI spec and is a standard.

Take the bullet of your choice, insert it into the Stoney Point tool, push it into your chamber (it comes with a brass of your caliber), Then you push a rod up through the brass which pushes the bullet to the lands. Turn the screw and lock the tool in that position. Remove the whole "system" and measure your OAL with calipers. Then you must make sure it will seat in your magazine at your rifles OAL max for that bullet.

I use an RCBS precision mic and measure base to ogive. There are simpler ways to do it but I feel they are less accurate.

Finally someone to explain that to me. Thanks Doc so much. You read me correctly when you say i was thinkin that oal meant the cartridge and bullets oal was to the lands. I was definatley thinking that. Darn i have alot to learn, on info overload already but it's starting to be more and more clear to me thanks to you guys.

Here's a silly question. When i chamber a round, any round, reloaded or otherwise, as the bullet goes into the chamber, it scrapes a smidgen down the full length of the tip of the bullet. no idea where or whats causing it to do that and its not like a deep gouge, just a smidgen, this rifle has not had but about 45-50 rounds shot through it and never caused me any trouble, just something i noticed. Any ideas what that could be or be caused by.?

Yes. If you observe the chamber mouth, It might not have a radius edge (chamfered). Some rifles come without a smooth chamfer at the mouth. This sharp edge can cause a faint but long nick in the bullet jacket. If it bothers you, take it to a smith, have them take the bbl off and they can chamfer it for you.

Click here and you'll see the Stoney Point gauge:
gauge

I would suggest getting a couple of reloading manuals and read them to learn about the reloading process. Better yet, find a local person and let them show you. The only problem with the latter is you don't know what THEY do and don't know.

I was at the range last year and a man old enough to be my grandfather was having very crappy groups with his Sierra bullets in his 7mag. He has been loading for just about 40 years. After some chit chat at the range, we began talking serious about accuracy. Ultimately, I started mentioning a few tools which he had never heard of. I wound up going to his house which was all of 3-4 minutes from mine. Long story short, this guy never had a mentor, skimmed a few books, and was still loading much like a rookie, but for 40 years. He had a lot to learn, but by this time, I think he wasn't all that interested in new tools for accuracy.

I felt bad because I think he felt embarrased, which was certainly NOT any intention of mine. I'm all about helping folks. AND having them help me.

Seating depth is a good thing to know about, but I think new reloaders seem to worry too much about exact settings. They ort to be more worried about a good basic consistant safe reload.
So are factory loads no good? How do they know where YOUR lands start?

The thing is it doesn't matter much until you get into fractions of accuracy.
Some Full-bore shooters here started to get carried away here while still required to use ADI 144gr Mil projectiles, couldn't get good accuracy, and someone said to go back to the 20 thou. from the lands that they liked.

My own trials showed some of my .223 projectiles would be just balanced on the end of the case to touch the lands. Others wouldn't fit in the mag if anywhere near the lands.
And the final insult, the "short" 45gr factory Winchester loads, which must be about 1/2" off the lands, shot extreemly well.

So there would be better things to worry about than seating depth, if their not jammed into the lands, fit in the mag, and don't have the bullet much into the case past the sholder.

Well, to some extent they do know where the lands are because there are SAMMI standards. If you look at the Lyman manual, it will provide a "OAL" reading for each bullet weight and it will tell you what bullet they used. I have found that this is a good place to start testing bullet seating depth.

I have also found that Lyman and Sierra most accurate load data is a good recommendation, particularly in relation to powder choice as well as charge. Kudude

Sure, but I don't know if young Sammy has a lot of control over throat/leade lengths some factorys use. And re factory loads, my point is the distance to the lands is all over the place, ie will be different in different brand rifles, and will be different between say a 200gr 30-06 load and a 110gr load, and that the distance to the lands they could care less about.

Hey wtman, I’ve used the old Cleaning Rod Method for years and it still works great for me. You will want to repeat this entire Process each time you open a new box of Bullets, even if it is the exact same type and weight.

You will need:
1. A long Cleaning Rod or Dowel Rod. If using a Dowel Rod, the Jag is not needed.
2. A Flat Tipped Jag.
3. A 0.001" capable set of Calipers.
4. A roll of Tape, masking tape works fine.
5. A single Set-Up Bullet.
6. An item to hold the Set-Up Bullet against the Lands.
7. The rifle.
8. A small piece of paper.

A. Screw the Flat Tipped Jag into the Cleaning Rod. I have some made of Brass that had a sharp point on the end which I filed off just for this.
B. With the Rifle unloaded and the Bolt closed, slide the Cleaning Rod in the muzzle until the Jag touches the Bolt Face.
C. Place a single wrap of Tape around the Cleaning Rod so the front edge of the Tape is against the Muzzle.
D. Remove the Cleaning Rod and remove the Bolt from the rifle if it is a Bolt Action. It is a Lever or Semi-auto just open the Bolt.
E. Drop the Set-Up Bullet point first into the Chamber.
F. Reinsert the Cleaning Rod in the Muzzle and slide it down to the Set-Up Bullet while holding something against the Bullet Base(item 5). Depending on the diameter of the Bullet, you might be able to use a wooden pencil, an old cartridge case with the mouth slightly crimped closed or a loaded cartridge to hold the Set-Up Bullet in position.
G. Take your 0.001" capable set of Calipers and measure the distance from front edge of the Tape to the Muzzle.
H. Record the measurement on a small piece of paper and Tape it to the Set-Up Bullet.

That measurement gives you the Overall Cartridge Length(OCL) for the Set-Up Bullet to just Kiss-the-Lands. Keep the Set-Up Bullet separate from the others because you will use it to properly adjust the Seating Die later on. I just put it in the Die Box to keep it separated.

Converting Overall Cartridge Length(OCL) to Overall Die Length(ODL)

It is important to understand that all Bullets in a box are not the same exact Length. This is due to minute variations in the amount of material being formed into the Bullet. Fortunately the distance from the Point on the Ogive that makes contact with the Lands to the Bullet Base is normally very accurate.

Most Seating Die Stems are cupped deep enough so the Bullet Tip does not make contact with the Seating Stem. Some of the Super Sleek Plastic Tip Bullets do touch the Seating Stem and this may or may not be a problem. The main thing is to have all the Bullets Seated so the Point on the Ogive that makes contact with the Rifle Lands is the same distance from the Case Head from cartridge to cartridge.

You can make a Dummy Cartridge with no Primer and no Powder using the Set-Up Bullet if you want to, but it is really not necessary unless you intend to Crimp the Bullets. When Crimping the Bullets, it will save a lot of time to have a Dummy from Step #8 below. For consistency, all Cases should be Trimmed to the proper length, deburred and chamfered.

1. Take a Primed case that has the Powder in it and insert it into the Press Shell Holder and raise the Ram.
2. With the Seating Die out of the Press, screw the Seating Stem all the way up.
3. Screw the Seating Die into the Press until you feel it make contact with the Case and back it up ½ turn.
4. Screw the Seating Die Lock Ring down to touch the Press. If you do not intend to Crimp the Case, you can snug-up the Lock Ring Set Screw. Make sure you can still unscrew and reseat the Sizing Die to the same depth. It is critical for the Lock Ring not to move on the Seating Die so you can always screw the Seating Die into the same position. If you do desire to Crimp the Bullet, do not tighten the Set Screw and make sure you make a Dummy Cartridge. Crimping will be done in a separate Step.
5. Lower the Ram, place the Set-Up Bullet atop the Case and raise the Ram.
6. Screw the Seating Stem in until it touches the Set-Up Bullet, lower the ram slightly, screw the Seating Stem in a bit more and raise the ram.
7. Remove the Cartridge and measure the OCL. Repeat #6 and #7 until the OCL is the exact same as what you measured with the Cleaning Rod.
8. Place the Cartridge back in the Shell Holder and raise the ram.
9. Snug the Seating Stem Lock Nut into position.

Here is where all the above allows us to convert from OCL to ODL.

10. Lower the Cartridge and unscrew the Seating Die from the Press.
11. Take your 0.001" capable Calipers and measure from the top of the Seating Stem to the very bottom of the Seating Die.

This is the Overall Die Length(ODL) for the Set-Up Bullet and you will want to record this length on the actual Bullet Box.

For an Example, lets say the OCL was 3.280" and when we complete the above process, the ODL is 4.300". We now know we can take any Bullet out of that box and Seat it to just Kiss-the-Lands with the ODL set at 4.300". Or of we want to Seat Bullets 0.025" Off-the-Lands, we simply adjust the Seating Stem to 4.275", screw the Seating Die into the Press and we are ready to begin Seating Bullets.

If the Seating Die Lock Ring moves, then all measurements will be off. So it is important to have the Set Screw SNUG, but not so tight that you round out the Hex.

On Cartridges that I Crimp, I always Crimp into a Cannelure. I leave the Lock Ring Loose on those Dies and perform Bullet Seating and Crimping as two separate steps. Here Dummy Cartridge can save you a good bit of Set-Up time.

I know that looks like a lot of stuff to do, and I guess it is. The Set-Up Bullet needs to be done each time you open a new box of bullets because of slight variances during manufacture. And occasionally the Manufacturers have to replace the Forming Dies which can change the Ogive shape and position.

It you have a rifle that uses a high Pressure cartridge and you shoot it a good bit, the Throat will recede a bit as you shoot it. So, this also helps keep up with that process

I know I do a lot more steps in my Reloading than most folks, but it is my time to use as I see fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

The main thing is to have all the Bullets Seated so the Point on the Ogive that makes contact with the Rifle Lands is the same distance from the Case Head from cartridge to cartridge.

H C

I must have missed the explanation of how you do this.

quote:

I know that looks like a lot of stuff to do, and I guess it is.

Or he could just get a Stoney Point Overall Length Gauge with comparator set and not have to do all that.

The bullets in the same box can vary from base to point and from base or point to the ogive measurement. The measurement from the point on the ogive where the seating cap touches the bullet to the point on the ogive where the bullet reaches full caliber can vary from bullet to bullet. When seating, I use RCBS competition seaters and reach up and back off the dial at the top so the bullet seats a little long. I then adjust the dial to seat the bullet, measuring to the point on the ogive that first contacts the lands with the Stoney Point Comparator, until all the bullets are seated the same. I've found that seating bullets from the same box, the seating depth to the ogive can vary as much as .005" due to a combination of bullet variance in the tip and ogive.

quote:

know I do a lot more steps in my Reloading than most folks, but it is my time to use as I see fit.

And more power to you. We need someone to keep up with the old ways. Doing all that you lined out above, how do you find time to grow tomatoes, H C?

Wow HC. I'm sure your method works very well. I guess I'm lazy. I went with the Stoney Point.

The only thing I found is that there can be differences in base to ogive within a box of bullets. In fact, so much so, (and it didn't matter who made the bullet), I got to the point where I use the micrometer on my Redding seater, and always back it out 6-7 thousandths before I seat each bullet, then fine tune it.

Nosler seems to be very good at ogive continuity but even my btips varied 2-5 thousandths within a box.

What type seaters are you guys useing? I`m missing something.

I`ve never had more then 0.001"-0.002" max variance in cartridge base to ogive measurment with my Stoney Point useing RCBS, Redding or Forster seaters and bullets from Sierra, Nosler, Hornady Ect. I did have at one time how ever, a seater that had a shallow depression in the searing stem and plastic tipped bullets bottomed out before the seater touched the ogive. This caused the die to seat off the tip not the ogive and was not a problem with bullets of regular geometery. A second with a small drill bit in my dremal fixed it. I don`t remember off hand but I think it was the V-Max in .224 cal and a Redding die that gave me that problem. Bullets with std jacketed/exposed lead tips have always seated very consistantly.

The bullet base to ogive lenght is moot as the base will seat as deep as is needed to put the contact point of the ogive in the proper position. The couple thousanths variation in bullet base depth likely is not measurable in any effect on the load.

ok, slap me and call me stupid.

I went and got the stoney point oal guage, i also picked up a 300 win mag modified case for it. When i insert a Barnes triple shock 180 grain into the case mouth, put contraption into chamber, lightly, yet with proper pressure, push the cable up to shove the bullet to the lands, lock the set screw dback out of rifle, and measure, i get 3.50. Could this be correct?
now this is measured to the tip, i will use the bullet comparitor i bought and see with it too.

Hey w t

You either have not pushed the modified case fully into the chamber (you push hard on that and rotate it back and forth to make sure it is all the way in) or you have a very long throat on your rifle.

You mentioned "cable" in your post, do you mean the plastic rod? The reason I ask is that there are offset Stoney Points that are meant to be used in lever or automatic guns.

2.912 is what it measures with bullet comparitor on it. its actually 3.912 but subtract the 1.000 for the comparitor after zero'ing it to 1.000 on the caliper.

this is an offset one but it says it can be used on bolt action. Instructions say so anyway. Is this not correct?

Woods, if i pm you my phone number could you call me? Or better yet i will call you if you pm me your phone number. I am all confused i guess. lol

Wow!!! I am so far off this aint even funny. Exciting as heck though figureing this stuff out.

using the oal gauge. I have now determined using Seirra 165 gr. spitzer boattails, my OAL and bullet comparitor is 2.906. After checking with some bullets i have made up. They are 2.756!

So, 2.906 minus 2.756 gives me 0.150 off the lands... NOT GOOD!!

No wonder i was haveing trouble and not getting accurate loads!! You guys are great. Does anyone see anything i have missed here?

Welcome to the next level of reloading.

Now, i have one more question

I've gotten to my oal using oal gauge and bullet. Why, when i set my press to where i want the bullet seated. i do the next round, check with bullet comparitor and its off from the other one, this is Crazy? every thing is tight and checked 20 times.

Hey w t

Slow down man, take a chill pill. Nothing is wrong, we'll figure it out.

First, I checked my spreadsheet and for my 300 the COAL is 3.475 and the comparator reading is 3.900 when I am seating .03" off the lands. Forget about subtracting that inch! The main thing you are doing is figuring out the measurements and making sure you can repeat them next time.

You did just exactly right by rezeroing the caliper to exactly one inch. I do that everytime.

1. Insert the bullet in the tool
2. Push the modified case with the bullet inside all the way in the chamber.
3. Unlock the cable or rod and gently but without hesitation push the bullet against the lands.
4. Lock the cable or rod knurl nut
5. Use a cleaning rod or dowel in the muzzle end to gently push on the bullet to release it from the lands
6. With the comparator on the caliper and rezeroed to 1" take the measurement.

Do this 2 or 3 times with different bullets to check the measurements

The instructions say to use the cleaning rod or dowel to bump the bullet back and forth, but I never got repeatable measurements that way. I do it just once with light pressure and it works great for me.

When seating bullets, I use competition seaters which allow me to reach up and easily back off the seating depth. Then I seat the bullet and check it and keep doing this while adjusting the seater back down until the measurement is reached. This is easy with a Lee seater or a RCBS competition seater, but not so easy with the regular RCBS seater you probably have. The measurements can vary as much as .005" because the distance from where the seater contacts the curve of the bullet and where the comparator contacts the bullet can vary from bullet to bullet. Some more than others.

I will PM you.

Come on, H C. Tell him how useless all this is.

"The main thing is to have all the Bullets Seated so the Point on the Ogive that makes contact with the Rifle Lands is the same distance from the Case Head from cartridge to cartridge."

quote:

H C ...I must have missed the explanation of how you do this.

Hey Woods, I simply set the Bullet atop the Case and ease it up into the Seating Die.

Just like Ol`Joe, I find the Ogive-to-Casehead length to be extremely uniform using both RCBS and Redding Die Sets.

And I'd imagine you Seat yours the same way I do. So then the question comes up as to what is different between our Procedures and Loads?

As I sit here thinking about it, it might be because I "normally" use the super sleek style Bullets for Benchmarking a rifle and then switch over to plain old Standard Grade Hornady, Nosler Partition, Remington, Sierra, and Speer Bullets. These typically aren't as sleek(have a lower Ballistic Coefficient, shorter Ogive, less sleek) and work fine to 400yds even with Round Nose styles.

On these Bullets, the front part of the Seating Stem actually touches the Ogive and not the Bullet's Tip. So, when I ease them in place, they should be the "same" distance from the Point on the Ogive to the Casehead. And they are, just like Ol`Joe's.

Those super sleek bullets can occasionally miss the Front of the Seating Stem that is supposed to touch the Ogive, because of their l-o-n-g tapered Ogive. That causes the Tip of the Bullet to be what the Seating Stem actually touches and then the overall "varying" Bullet Length(from Bullet Base to the Tip) will cause the distance from the Point on the Ogive to the Casehead to vary. Again, just like Ol` Joe mentioned.

(Or it could just be that Stoney Point Thingy pulling a clinton on you. )

On the Benchmarking, I intentionally Seat the Bullets "Into-the-Lands". Then when I chamber the Cartridge, the minute variation in Cartridge Length is either readjusted by the Bullet sliding into the Case slightly or it just has a bit more Compressive Tension against the Bullet. I don't know which it is from rifle to rifle, maybe a bit of both.

So, I really suspect you are seeing the Variation because your Seating Stem is actually pushing against the Tip of the Bullet and not the Ogive. You should be able to tell by removing the Seating Stem and dropping a Bullet into it. If the Bullet wobbles, then the Tip is hitting the inside of the Seating Stem.

Ol`Joe has a good idea about opening a hole in the Seating Stem to allow the Tip to float or be untouched during Seating. Knowing how things occasionally go for me, I'd buy a "Spare Seating Stem" and do the drilling on it though.

Or, your particular Die maker might be able to make a Seating Stem so it actually has enough room for the Tip to float. They may even have them on the shelf for these super sleek Ogive Bullets. Then you would not have to adjust every single Bullet as you Seat it.

That has to be aggravating.
---

Hey Doc, Once I convert from the OCL to the Overall Die Length(ODL), I rarely even bother measuring the distance from the Ogive to Casehead. This is because I did it a lot in the past and found for the Bullets "I use" it just isn't necessary.

I do agree with both you and Woods that keeping the Ojive distance consistant is very important to achieving excellent accuracy. It can be very frustrating for a Beginner not to understand that.

If you are Custom Seating each Bullet like Woods is, by partially Seating, measuring with the Stoney Point, then adjusting the Micrometer Seating Stem, Seating a bit, remeasuring, readjusting and finally getting the Bullet Seated, I do believe you are doing more "work" in that process than I am. That is not being critical at all, cause your Method obviously works great for you and Woods too.
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Hey Woods, You really should explain to wtman about the "Learning Curve" on the Stoney Point Thingy. Just doesn't seem fair for him not to know.

ok, using Barnes triple shock 180 grain boat tails, my caliper after doing this 8 times is 3.913 so we will go with that. That is not subtracting the 1.000.. so you thnk that is correct. lmao

quote:

Originally posted by wtman:
ok, using Barnes triple shock 180 grain boat tails, my caliper after doing this 8 times is 3.913 so we will go with that. That is not subtracting the 1.000.. so you thnk that is correct. lmao

That sounds entirely correct. Now subtract .05" from it like Barnes says and use your comparator when seating the bullets to read 3.863" and you are loading what you want. Do try the loaded rounds to see how they cycle in your gun (safety first, be careful) and you can tell if there are any problems before you get to the range or before you seat all the bullets and have to pull them for some reason.

H C, answer me this - if

quote:

I find the Ogive-to-Casehead length to be extremely uniform using both RCBS and Redding Die Sets.

how do you know if you don't have a Stoney Point Comparator?

quote:

how do you know if you don't have a Stoney Point Comparator?

Hey Woods, I've used two things in the past to prove to myself the Ogive is in the same relative position from cartridge to cartridge.

1. I do have a Sinclair Bullet Comparitor. It is simply an aluminum Hex (unthreaded) nut, with different size holes drilled through each of the six sides. You simply slip the correct hole over a Bullet and measure across the Bullet Comparitor to the Base, or over the Bullet Seated in a cartridge measured to the Casehead. Very simple and consistently repeatable.

2. I got a Tip from one of the Boards about using a "Socket" out of your tool box to do the same thing with. You just go to your tool box and get the Largest Socket you have that will not slip past the Ogive and use it the same way as the Sinclair Bullet Comparitor. It is also very simple and consistently repeatable.

I used them both long enough to realize how consistant Ogive to Casehead distance is for the Bullets I use, and found I just didn't need to do it any more.

Did you try removing the Seating Stem and seeing if your Bullet wobbles in it?
---

By the way, I see there is no need for you to explain to wtman about how inconsistent the readings are with the Thingy. He has figured that out for himself.