I'm new to reloading, started after Christmas, and I've produced some good shooting loads for my 308 already. Thought I'd branch out and start on some loads for my AR. I already had around a 1000 rds of factory loaded 55 grn, FMJ, IMI ammo and from what I had read, IMI brass was good to work with for reloading. My AR has a 16" SS barrel with a 1:8 twist. With the factory ammo, it's pushing them out at 3200 fps and shooting MOA, or pretty close to it, at 100. I took the once fired brass, fully resized them, trimmed to 1.75", removed the crimp, cleaned the primer pocket, cleaned the brass,and started with a minimum load and moved up. I'm using WSR primers, Hodgdon CFE223 powder, and Federal Fusion 62 gr bullets. Starting low with my charge, speeds around 2600 fps, then moved up progressively to the max load, pushing out at 3100 fps, I loaded 14 workups. Shooting at 50 yards, my shots all fall within about a 7" circle. If I grab five of those factory loads, I'll shoot a 1" group, again, at 3100-3200 fps. I feel like I'm chasing my tail. A co-worker suggested that I load up a group, using same recipe, just change the brass. I loaded five rounds, three were Win brass, one was RP, and one was FC. All five rounds were within a 2" group, with the RP and FC making a single hole. I'll list the info on both loads, the only difference is the brass. One with IMI, the other mixed as shown. And powder was individually weighed on digital scale.

IMI brass, trimmed to 1.75"
62 gr Federal Fusion SPBT
26.5 gr, Hodgdon CFE223 powder
Win Small Rifle Primer

1. 2837 fps
2. 2883 fps
3. 2890 fps
4. 2872 fps
5. 2865 fps
AVG-2869 fps
spread-53 fps

Mixed brass, trimmed to 1.75"
62 gr Federal Fusion SPBT
26.5 gr, Hodgdon CFE223 powder
Win Small Rifle Primer

1. FC brass, 2897 fps
2. RP brass, 2811 fps
3. Win brass, 2890 fps
4. Win brass, 2872 fps
5. Win brass, 2865 fps
AVG-2856 fps
spread- 86 fps

I realize that the 5.56 brass has the same external dimensions as the 223 brass, but it's the internal dimensions that are different. For me, the beginner, I look at the numbers, everything is the same, with the exception of the brass. Even the speed between the IMI and the mixed brass is almost identical. I'm hoping someone, and for you guys it may be as clear as a sunny day, where the problem lies. Should I just give up on the IMI brass?

I should have added, all were crimped with a light crimp. I am using a Lee Classic Turret press, using Lee dies.

sounds like it likes the 55gr bullets.
I would try a batch without the crimp .see if that improves the load.
Change seating depth could help and different primers also could improve the load.
The SD is very high but I have had loads that were high and still shot MOA. all my loads are under 20f/s spread

You CAN'T expect bugholes unless your rifle, scope, etc,. are treated as a system and ALL the individual pieces have to be working uniformly.

ALL these subjects have been treated completely and individually and as disjointed groups on just about every forum I've been too. If you want to learn about HOW to produce bugholes visit some of the AR and Benchrest forums...the subject has been covered like stink on a ratzzazzz.

The only way to eliminate "fliers" is to do YOUR research by the individual pieces, LEARN WHAT to do, then DO IT to bring them into compliance and THEN start working on loads.

You're starting in the middle, jumping around and forgetting HOW to begin at the beginning...your jumping all over the brass and not really addressing the bullet or all the other components, OR THE RIFLE ...AND EVERY THING ELSE IS NOT THE SAME

NO DISS OR FLAME INTENDED...pretty much EVERYONE does the same thing...read just enough to get into trouble and think what you've done is the right way.

IMI IS good brass, I use it all the time...BUT...I benchrest prep EVERYTHING...factory ammo and the krap you buy by the ton to hose down the country side is loaded to perform at at certain level...USUALLY 3-4" at 100...Even Lake City match stuff, very good brass, is only good for 1-2" in a accurized gun with a good shooter behind it.

One shot groups AREN'T bughole groups, they're just bugholes...3 in one hole and two out 2" isn't a bughole group...it's a 2" group...a g patterns like that are telling you a ton, but YOU have to learn enough to understand the language...by actual reloading or b y reading and following the mantra.

It is hard, totally mind numbing work to go through all the steps required to produce bughole ammo...and hard work to produce a rifle capable of consistently shooting bugholes...AND...LOTS OF correct practice to teach your whole body to recognize that specific sight picture, breath control, zone, hard to describe point when the round is off without thinking about it and you see the hole, can, rock or animal and KNOW it's YOURS.

There ain't no other way unfortunately.

Good Luck

I'm not offended, just have no clue what you said. I get your intended message. There are not many variables in my setup. I don't use a scope, just an old school peep sight. I didn't start in the middle. I started low on powder charges. Worked my way up. My shooting isn't the problem. Not that I can't have a jerked trigger pull, as I am human and those things happen. I don't expect every bullet to follow the next into the same hole. But with a proper load and a barrel that has no issues, I can and do shoot a pretty consistent group. I guess my mistake was going on the web to ask advice. I appreciate the time that you took to respond as that did take some time and effort on your part and that is time you'll never be able to get back.

quote:

I guess my mistake was going on the web to ask advice

Some times you get more than you ask for.
in my defense just change one thing at a time and see if the groups get any better. Do you know what twist you have in that barrel. it may not like heavy bullets.
I would try some without the crimp. That can cause a few different issues and pressure change will drive you crazy

Welcome to the forum! Part of the fun of reloading to me is chasing the holy grail of accuracy.

In your position, I'd probably go back to 55 grain bullets. Though a bit pricy, I'd invest in 3 or 4 different brands/styles of 55 grain bullets and try each of them with your CFE-223 with a charge that's 1.5 grains below max.

If something looked promising, I'd refine the propellant charge up and down in .5 grain increments with that bullet to get a real feel for what's going on.

Then I'd play with different propellants behind the bullet(s) that shoots the best.(My go-to propellant for a .223 is LT-32, with IMR 4198 being a close second).

My experience is that, unless you're shooting competition, brass isn't that crucial to decent accuracy. I say this based on using a variety of brass in my .223 Stevens: Rem, Lapua, PMC, BGA, Hornady, LC (some LC cases were shot from a SAW). I've used Rem, Win and CCI primers without seeing accuracy degrade.

With several different bullets of different weights, the rifle shoots ~0.75 MOA (5 shots) or better if I do my part (3 shots into <0.5MOA), irrespective of brass or primer. YMMD.

The fact that you don't understand all that was given you, that you have MORE VARIABLES than a dog has flees and think no one has helped you and going/blaming the web, was wrong...should wake you up...but obviously DIDN'T...NO FLAME OR DISS INTENDED...but you gotta get real and START from the beginning to learn what-the-he**-and-why by LISTENING AND LEARNING.

There is tons of books, DVD's, magazines and ONLINE teaching YOUTOOBS that will take you from A to Z in reloading brass...shotgun, pistol, rifle etc.

It's YOUR job to do this and the web is FULL of the good, bad and the VERY YOOGLY.

Good Luck

You have learned that your rifle doesn't like 62gr Federal fusion bullets. This is one of the things you learn in reloading.
You need to know what your rifle's twist is. Those "platforms" have barrels with twist that are all over the place in the attempt to make the .223 into a .243. That will give you a starting idea. And then, as posted, you need to try several different brands of bullets. And powders. You can tell a long time reloader by the number of partial boxes of bullets and the partial cans of powder he has tucked in the back of his closet.
Don't get in a hurry to find the magic grail for your rifle. It is the journey that should be enjoyed.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
You can tell a long time reloader by the number of partial boxes of bullets and the partial cans of powder he has tucked in the back of his closet.

Truer words were never spoken . . .

And I totally concur about knowing the twist.

Personal story: my fiendishly accurate .225 Win has a 1:14 twist. If I'd taken the trouble to inform myself when I got it, I'd have approached load development just a tad differently . . .

B.L. That's it that's how we get there. Can't replace school of hard knocks. reloaders , handloders need that trial and error, we are made to tinker till it works.
For me I have taken many paths

Dee- you came to the right forum for good advice. Many have different experiences, because every firearm behaves somewhat uniquely.

Good advice above- best thing is to be methodical and change as few variables at one time as possible. Run load in small lots, say (5) and judge the result accordingly.

As suggested, your barrel twist might not be capable of stabilizing heavier bullets.

Good luck and be safe.

what are you looking for?

accuracy..?
that takes a good barrel and good target quality bullets.
try some 52-52 match type bullets.

varmint hunting accuracy?
try some good varmint bullets, Hornady V-max or sierra game king types.

just wanna do some mag dump ammo blastin?
FMJ's are cheap.
actually any cheap bullet will fill the bill.
don't expect 1" groups from the little bags or lowest cost bullets you can get.

try not crimping, or really backing the crimp off.
that can damage a bullet and will kill your accuracy no matter how good your bullet is.
yeah neck tension will hold the bullet in place even cramming in the chamber.
the 9mm and 40 short both rely on a slight taper crimp slight as in about .001 on the case mouth, they really rely on neck tension to do the job.

Five shot groups don't prove much of anything.

Take a look at the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports magazine


media/1533525/1014_ssusa_archive.pdf


The last article , page 38, is a reprint of a May 1958 American Rifleman article "Assessing the Accuracy of 22 lr Target Rifles."

This article is based on test data, it is a very well planned and executed article. Smallbore prone shooters shoot 40 shots per "match", two targets of 20 shots for record each "match", and there are typically three to four "matches" to determine the aggregate. Smallbore prone targets have four record bulls for 50 yards, two record bulls for 100 yards. This is to help the scorer and the shooters. So for small bore, each target is worth 200 points, each match is the aggregate of 40 shots, so for small bore prone shooters, they want perfect 40 shot groups.



Actually they want perfect 160 shot groups, and they want the groups to be less than the X ring in size. What you find, if you ever have your rifle tested at the Lapua test center in Mesa AZ or at Eley, is that lot selected ammunition will hold the ten ring at all distances but not the X ring.

What the article shows is that if a 40 shot group is the standard, then at 50 yards (the analysis goes out to 200 yards) than a 20 shot group is 88% the size of a 40 shot group, a ten shot group 71%, and a five shot group 57% of the size of a 40 shot group. Interestingly, at 100 yards, a prone with a sling group is 38% larger on average than if the group is shot bench rested.

A shooting bud of mine asked Larry Moore, a gentleman who was an avid Highpower, Long range and smallbore prone shooter, how many rounds it took to have confidence in a load, and Larry said "about 20,000". Larry had a background which I have not seen duplicated in another person. Larry started working with John Garand at Springfield Armory prior to WW2. After the war Larry tested, at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, every potential service rifle candidate. You can find some of his reports in books. Larry shot thousands and thousands of rounds in his tests, and he thinks, it takes about 20,000 rounds to really know if a load is good or not.

Five shots just won't do it.

20,000 rounds?

How many barrels would that be?

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:
20,000 rounds?

How many barrels would that be?

Larry won the Wimbleton 1000 yard match at Camp Perry with a 30-06. So, at least four, mostly likely five, 30-06 barrels.

I talked to the number two Smallbore Prone National Champion, his firing point was next to mine. His Anschutz had been lot tested either 60 or 90 times, probably the larger number. Even so, it took about 500 rounds, a brick, before he had confidence in that lot. And you know, that is not an unreasonable number, that is about three 1600 matches.

Ive had outstanding good luck with IMI .223..It comes annealed..

I picked up several thousand rounds of IMI .223 at a range..made 6x45 out of them outsid trimmed the necks for my 6x45 benchrest ) tolerance chamber and loaded it max..In a test I shot some of those up to 30 times in a test and they were still good it seemed, and I now toss them at 15 shots and they were still good..They last a good bit longer than WW or Rem. PPU seems to be as good, if not they are close.