I want to try neck sizing my brass, but dont want to buy the die. How do you adjust a die to neck size only? I'm hoping this will reduce the amount of case trimming I have to do.

You can not! with FLR dies that is. You're gonna hit the shoulder whether you want to or not!

Seems to me you just want to seat the FL die higher in the press.The result being that the brass will not hit the portion in the die that pushes the shoulder back.You can thereby dial in how much of the neck you want resized.

Since most cases are tapered, the FL die must be all the way engaged to bump the shoulder back. The easiest way to just size the neck is to put something on the neck (after lubing). I use the dry lubricant for lubing the inside of the necks during forming.
Then adjust the die several turns above where it makes contact with the case holder on the ram. Run the brass into the die and check the neck to see how far down the die sized the neck, adjust the die until you are sizing the neck down to about 1/16" from the shoulder/neck meet. Done.

One thing to note- I've checked my brass before and after sizing and found that most case stretching occurs when the sizing button is pulled back through the neck. I've measured as much as .007 stretch from this operation alone in several different cartridges. So some trimming will still be necessary, but by not working the shoulder and body of the cases, they should last longer regardless.- Sheister

For Christ's sake, spend the stinking $14 and get the right tool for the job!

Adjusting the FL die to only size the neck can bulge the shoulder slightly. You end up adjusting it so it barely pushes the shoulder back enough to easily chamber the cartridge. That's really proper FL resizing, not neck sizing. I'm a big fan of the Lee Collet neck sizers, myself.

What Steve said; Just buy a Lee Collet die, and call it good. Short of bushing dies (and the rigamarole that comes with using them), the collet die is the way to go. FWIW, Dutch.

Well, I've heard all the rhetoric about needing to use the neck sizing collets for really precise ammo, you'll push back the shoulder if you neck size only with the FL die, yada, yada, yada......
Being a cheapskate and not wanting to add an additional step to an already tedious process, I just use the FL dies and save the money for more important things (like more bullets and powder).
My loads have been more than accurate enough for my uses, many of my varmint rifles dip into the .2's and .3's with my methods. I simply use FL resizing for everything I load for except fireforming loads and never had any major problems. I've also heard no end of problems from different people on these forums complaining about not getting the right sized collet, won't size properly, etc.....
Who needs the headache and all the extra parts and pieces to keep track of? Not to mention having to buy extra equipment for every cartridge you load for? My reloading cabinet is already groaning every time I buy a new reloading die set and try to find a place to store it.
The issue is accurate loads, right? Even with the worst reloading technique, short of forgetting to use lube on your brass, you're still going to get a minimum of 5-6 reloads out of big bore brass and 2 or 3 times that many out of smaller cartridges like the .223. So what is being saved?
When they start showing problems, toss them and get new brass. It's cheap and most of the new brass is excellent. Neck sizing with a FL sizing die works just fine IMO, and you may or may not save yourself trimming. If trimming is common on a cartridge you load for some reason, you are probably trimming too close to maximum length when you do trim, or you have other problems like an overly generous chamber dimension.
I guess it's up to you if you want to spend your time shooting or loading? - Sheister

Buy some bullets with that $14.00
Simply put about a .010 " to .015" shim between your shell holder and your die. release the jam nut and reposition it. That's if the nut was originally set for FL.Play with it a bit and if it works FOR YOU tell us how much you enjoyed shooting up that $14.00 worth of bullets. Shiester was giving you good info he is not what his handle implies. However, maybe he and I don't have the same sophistication level as some of the others. roger

Adjust your FL sizing die so it just bumps the shoulder enough to prevent hard chambering. The case should chamber with a very slight hint of resistance, as this ensures minimum case expansion ie good accuracy and case life. IMO there is no good reason for neck sizing unless you shoot benchrest competition. I want all my loads to chamber reliably and easily without undue case stretching. This is all attainable with a properly adjusted FL sizing die.

If you follow the proper reloading techniques the difference in accuracy betwen neck and FL sizing will not even be discernable in most hunting or varmint rifles--but there is a difference in feeding, which is very important.

Well ... If you bought Redding dies it tells you right in the instructions.

Screw the die in to set it up normaly so it touches the shell holder , then back the die of(unscrew it) 1/4 to 1/2 turn.

In elkhntr's posting he wanted to try neck sizeing with his dies. I don't think he was looking for the finger shakers and nay sayers to cuation him about doing this cause he ain't got the right equipment and that the feed and chambering problems may bite him in the ass when attacked by a charging chipmunk.All he wanted was an answer about neck sizing with his dies. The answer is yes do it. If EH ever asks" what bad things will happen to me if I neck size?" I'm sure he'll get a full thread. roger

Even easier (IMO) is to get a 7/8 flat washer from the hardware store. Your die nut stays set for F/L sizing and with the washer installed you get a partial F/L (simulated neck) sizing. I've done this to several cartridges and never had the shoulders buckle or the necks "pull up" (of course I do use a touch of lube inside the neck, after cleaning it)

bartsche,
I meant my reply to elkhunter even though I replied under your name (it being the last post). Sorry!

I was agreeing with what you and Sheister posted. You cannot "only" neck size the "whole" neck with a FL die without working the rest of the case a little, but you can adjust it to where it minimizes case expansion by just slightly bumping the shoulder, while at the same time having the benefit of reliable chambering. The benefits of true neck sizing are basically moot for a hunting rifle, while the disadvantages are real.

I assumed by the question he asks that he is not aware of this.

Hot Core,

You and I must have gone to the same rifle school. I agree that the best re-sizing method is to bump the shoulder until you can feel just a slight bit of resistance on the bolt when placing the sized case in the chamber. P-FLR--right? Generally the best accuracy and the best case life. You're fitting the fired cases to your chamber.

knobmtn

I get the best accuracy from partial full length re sizing.
I take the expander ball / decapping stem out of the FL die.
I put Imperial sizing wax on my finger and rub just enough on the case so that sizing is easy.

I will get as close to the shoulder as I can without setting it back. [I don't want to have to trim]. To adjust the die, I can usually just look at the necks comming out and see the shiney part getting close to the shoulder.

My theory as to why this works so well is that the case body is being held tightly and keeps the neck sizing concentric.

I've seen a lot of guys with cartridges stuck in the chamber, rim torn off, and out of ideas. I never neck size.

Hot core, Knob Mountain, Clark, (Anybody else),

Hang with me, I'm sort of new,

Can I do a "partial-FLR" on .223 Remington brass IF I'm firing it out of my Bushmaster AR15??

Weird - I'm running a Lee collet die on a .25-06 loaded quite close to max, never lost brass, never had chambering problems, never had extraction problems - and I'm shooting a Ruger#1, weak extraction and all. Also, never had to FL resize those cases, and case length is just about constant. I must be doing something wrong...

when attacked by a charging chipmunk
Been there/done that, it wasn't pretty

Redding, who, I assume we can mostly agree upon as being pretty knowledgeable about such things, states that a FL die should never be used for neck sizing, as it can bulge the shoulder. I dunno, maybe they're just trying to sell Neck Dies? Worked on me, I get Neck Dies all the time now

R-WEST

Hey knobmtn, Yes indeed, you, Clark and I do a good bit of this stuff alike.

Hey BushmasAR, First off, Welcome Aboard! Always good to have another hunter/shooter/reloader join in.

Quote:

---

...Can I do a "partial-FLR" on .223 Remington brass IF I'm firing it out of my Bushmaster AR15??

---

Probably, but you will need to set it just a bit "looser" for your semi-auto than we do for the Bolt Actions.

Adjust your FLR Die so it is about 2-nickles above the Shell Holder with the Ram up. Lube a case that has had a fairly stiff but SAFE Load in it, resize it, wipe it clean, slip it in the Chamber and see if the Bolt will "lock closed" when you push the Bolt Release.

If it does, screw the FLR Die into the Press about 1/4 turn and repeat the above. At some point as you "lower" the FLR Die, all of a sudden the Bolt will not Lock Closed.

The reason for this is because the distance from the Casehead to the Datum Line on the Shoulder has "lengthened" as the FLR Die begins to squeeze the sides of the Case back into position. You are getting close now, so go to 1/8 turns.

Keep screwing the FLR Die into the Press until the Bolt "Locks Closed" on your Bushmaster. On a regular Bolt Action rifle, you would stop when there is just a slight bit of resistance or "Zero Headspace".

Best of luck to you.

This is one area that you might want to be careful of. I'd highly recommend getting ahold of some loading information *specifically for gas guns*, such as the section in the new Sierra #5 loading manual, or some of the AR/HP related books by Glenn Zediker (www.zediker.com) or Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks. These guys have probably put more rounds down range thru gas operated rifles than you and me and several others here combined.

The short version of the information in those books, and that you would probably find if you asked the same question on dedicated forums (to ARs and the like) is that 1) neck-only sizing in an AR isn't really beneficial, and can be very dangerous, and 2) bump the shoulder back a few thousandths, like 2 or 3, from fired dimensions, and you should be good to go.

As far as 1), the issue is that you are dealing w/ a gas operated gun here. That case gets, relatively speaking, the ever-loving-crap beat out of it enroute to the chamber when feeding from the magazine (as compared to most bolt guns). So trying to maintain BR tolerances isn't really going to do a lot of good. Not that the guns aren't frighteningly accurate anyhow. But where the danger comes in, is that you have a floating firing pin. Try chambering around, then ejecting it w/o firing. Often times (some guns do it more than others) you will see a little dimple on the primer, from that floating firing pin coming forward as the bolt locks and it 'kisses' the primer. It's generally a good idea to use primers w/ tougher/thicker cups, like Remington 7-1/2 BRs, CCI BR4, CCI 400, etc. as a little extra insurance. But back to the point: if you don't size the case enough, that firing pin 'kiss' can hit harder and more fully. Better hope you have the gun pointed in a safe directon. Second, better hope the bolt managed to lock up fully.

W/ regards to 2), well it seems that doing the 'partial F/L sizing' such as others have mentioned here does net some pretty darn good results as far as accuracy in an AR. My personal recommendation is that you spend the $$$, and either get an RCBS Precision Mic, read the directions and use it to make sure your die is setting your case shoulders back far enough, or get the Stoney Point headspace gauge attachments for your dial calipers and measure the headspace that way. I like the Stoney Point tool, as it gives me an actual number to correlate to other things if I really want. The Precision Mic works well, but the number on it is more 'relative'. Still works, though.

HTH,

Monte

Elkhntr-If you ever ask a hard question we're really going to be in deep---deep Bull Puckyy.If we can keep this going we may even compete with some of the troll threads.There were a whole bunch of people neck sizing before there were neck sizing dies. What does a neck sized bulged shoulder look like. In 47years of reloading I never saw such a thing. roger

Maybe I should clarify things a little bit. I shoot a 300 Winchester Magnum. I want to size the cases so that they headspace on the shoulder, not the belt. The Speer reloading manual says that you can get better accuracy and increased case life using this method. I will not be using these rounds to hunt with. I always use once fired cases that are full length resized to for my hunting loads.

You can still do what HotCore refers to as 'partial F/L sizing', or what I've normally heard as F/L sizing but just bumping the shoulder back a little. No need to squawk the shoulder back too far (excess headspace and all that, at least w/ rimless/beltless cases). I haven't loaded for a belted magnum recently, so I cant say for sure, but I think whether or not you are able to get the cases to size on the shoulder rather than the belt has a lot to do w/ the cut of the chamber, specifically the belt area.

Monte

Hey milanuk, I like to differentiate between FLR and P-FLR as follows:



FLR reforms the fired case to meet SAAMI Standards. This Case should fit in all rifles chambered for this particular caliber. A person should ALWAYS FLR when hunting in a Dangerous Game area.



P-FLR reforms the fired case to fit in a specific (Bolt Action) rifles chamber with a slight crush fit. Or think of it as a negative Headspace of say -0.0005" to -0.0015". The distance from the Case-head to the Datum Line on the Case-shoulder is just a bit longer than the mating dimension inside that particular rifle's chamber.



This forces the Case to be held in compression when chambered. That inturn causes the CenterLine of the Case to be in "extremely close alignment" with the CenterLine of the Chamber.



...



For those that still think Neck Sizing is more accurate, when a Case is Neck Sized, it "lays" on the bottom of the Chamber. It should be apparent this causes the Case CenterLine to be farther away from the Chamber CenterLine than when P-FLRing. The only time a Neck Sized case gets "closer" to the Chamber CenterLine is on the last shot you can make before you "have to bump the shoulder back", as the Neck Sizers like to say.



But, the good news is you can EASILY prove it to yourself by doing a "Blind" Test with your own cases. Just have a buddy hand them to you without telling you which ones you are shooting. Shoot a combined group of 15-18 Neck Sized cartridges and a similar combined group with the P-FLRed cases. Then measure the groups. Nothing tricky at all.

Hot Core,
Thanks for the welcome, this is an excellent forum. The advice is also superb. I'm going to try what you said.

Thanks again, BAR

Hey BushmasAR, Lots of good folks with a lot of good experience at this site. I learn things from a good many of them about cartridges and Bullets I've just never used.

I don't know if P-FLR will work in your rifle or not, but it is what I would try to do. If it doesn't work, just keep cranking it in and it will have to work when they are FLRed "or" you will need Small Base Dies. It is very rare that these are needed though.

Best of luck to you.

Hi Elkhntr. What does a neck sized bulged shoulder look like. In 47 years of reloading I never saw such a thing Me either, but maybe Redding has. Their note was pretty adamant about it.



I always, pre neck-sizer days, used the old tighten the die down in 1/8 turn increments until the case enters the chamber with minimal resistance, then another 1/16 turn or so to make sure every one chambers, method.



Still, any round that was going hunting with me was loaded into the magazine and run through the action, safely outdoors, of course, just to make sure there were no surprises waiting for me out in the big woods. Finding a cartridge won't chamber at the bench is a totally different matter than discovering the same thing when a large angry animal is headed your way, I'd imagine



R-WEST

R-West,

I've seen those neck bulged shoulders. It was always in rifles with factory chambers. I've got 'em with both neck dies and F. L. dies set to neck size. I always figured it was from a chamber that had the chamber including the neck area out to maximum SAAMI spec. The bulge doesn't run clear down the shoulder. Just into the start of it just below the neck--shoulder junction. It never caused me trouble but my sizing methods have prevented this for years now.

knobmtn

That bulge results from either lack of lubrication on the inside of the neck or an expander that's not properly fitted to the operation creating enough friction to pull it out. When it pulls out and bulges the shoulder, most always nearer the neck.