The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading If only accurate rifles are interesting, then only accurate loads are interesting...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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...therefore, I have never understood the value (aka the use) of these small quantities of random bullets that posters on Classified Forums put up and then require them to be sold as 1 lot. For example: "selling as 1 lot all 30 cal - 15 of A, 19 of B, 22 of C, 24 of X, 27 of Y, and 23 of Z" Load development in my experience take 18-20 rounds. What use does the buyer get of this? A 130 reloads for functioning testing? A 130 reloads that were just created with a historical accurate load that the rifle is not really sighted in for to just hear the rifle "go bang"? A 130 loads to practice Kentucky windage with? What am I missing? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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One use for odds and ends is fouling shots which I always take a couple of first. In this day and age when it is near impossible to get some of the bullets that you really need/use every little bit helps. Hip | |||
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I never understood that statement and never use it. Accuracy is all relative and a caveat must be placed on the term "accurate" rifle; Accurate for what purpose? For example, a two inch group from a. double rifle at 50 yards, which is a standard criterion, will never be considered "accurate", by someone who shoots flying Reindeer at 400 yards. Nor does a deer hunter in these parts need a rifle that shoots better than 3 or 4 MOA; a standard that the western hunters would sneer at. Even a Walmart special shooting any load will do that; All relative. As for the random lots of bullets, they are for plinking, not serious use. Or for those who do not "develop" loads; such as the categories above, which make up 90% of hunters. Yet they still kill game. | |||
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Shooting large rocks across the canyon. | |||
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I just find the clutter of random bullets in my storage cabinet annoying. With respect to fouling shots, I have always had plenty of old loads around for that. I just can't imagine a reloader who says - yeah 2-3 MOA is good for me, so I will use any of these bullets. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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That is when you take them all, load them up, get a few milk jugs and your kids and go do some "plunking" for the hell of it. That gets the odd slugs out of your hair and you might even have a little fun doing it. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I still hate the saying; if only rifles giving .5 MOA accuracy are interesting, those who subscribe to it do not use any truly interesting rifles. Whelen said it, but what did he really mean? "Gundom's Dumbest Axiom", is a phrase I read, and totally agree with. The most interesting firearm I have is, a 1795 Springfield. It won't hit a cow at 100 yards. But nonetheless, very interesting. I also note that most respondents, live in the West. Here, we neither have rocks, nor canyons, and in fact, rifles were not even legal until recently. Yet, thousands of deer are and were killed, with arms that might shoot 6 MOA by accident. How can that be? | |||
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Im only interested in accurate rifles that shoot all or most loads into an inch or less and to the same POI.. Am I to be scorned by someone who apprantly defies accuracy as a plus?? To that I say bull shit, I just might want to make a brain shot on a rabbit or deer, a chucker for supper, or even a charging cape buffalo or elephant, Id not want a 6" gun...and Yes only accurate guns are interesting and thats my right.. BTW a 6inch gun at 100 yards is a 12inch gun at 200 yards under field conditions and so on and on.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Tom, But I think you may be conflating the issue because the hunter who is Ok with 3+ MOA is not likely to be a reloader. My point is - these ads are obviously focused on reloaders. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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i agree 100%. Lots of obsolete/one off etc rifles are damn interesting who gives a shit how they shoot! thats like saying only fast cars are interesting. what horse shit! | |||
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Nothing in the "statement" says accuracy is not a relative term. But would any of you find a double rifle that shoots 9" groups at 50 yards "interesting"? or a Lever rifle that shoots 9 inch groups at 100 yards interesting? How about a self defense handgun that the design is inherently unreliable? is that interesting? Relative accuracy for the intended range is the raison d'etre of a rifle. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I agree with Mike and a few other posters as well. Odds and ends are only good for fouling and plinking (I won't "plink" with one of my precision rifles. That's what 10-22's are for) and If I'm the buyer of any odds bullets, the price better be damn close to free. Also, accuracy is relative, yes, but several interesting rifle are now in the hands of a new owner because they would not perform to my standards. I was killing coyotes over the weekend with a highly interesting 20 Practical custom which shoots tighter groups than most would believe! When I found what it liked, I bought 1000 BIB bullets and 5 lbs of XBR-8208. Zeke | |||
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uninteresting guns are curios. ones that merely need some investigation and a little repair. usually something simple like a magazine box, or old el crooked eye chambered the thing at the Remington plant. simple repairs [shrug] but small groups of random bullets lets a reloader see if his rifle likes those bullets. or am I the only one that remembers the little 4 oz. sample packs of powder from back in the day. just enough to 'see', and just enough to get in some rock shootin, or to let the kids get some range time. in the field trigger time is always helpful even if the 'groups' ain't so hot. | |||
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And so it has been defined as any rifle that does not shoot everything into one inch or less, is not "interesting" and definitely not desirable. The real world "relative and necessary" accuracy, is lost to them; they do not own, shoot, or like, lever actions and antiques. I'm glad those that think that are not saddled with state laws that prohibit rifles; shotguns only; and one inch at 100 yards is a dream. Even 6 inches is good; and forget shooting at 200 yards. You learn to actually "hunt" and get closer. I hate Whelen's saying even more now. | |||
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dpcd nails it. On multiple fronts. | |||
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Didn't nail it, stumped his toe!!  1" guns today are fairly common and all mine are, and I love it..if your satisfied with a 3" or 6" group at 100 thats fine, but won't work for me. as for sneaking up on a animal being the ultimate in Skill, well its a fluke mixed with a lot of ego! and besides shooting a deer at 10 yards works with a 1" gun works as well as a 6" gun..goodness! No sir, accurate guns are better.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Not sure the discussion was about shotguns or State restrictions but I certainly see your point. Like I said in my post, "accuracy is relative" to the task at hand. If 3-6" groups work for someone, so be it. I have interesting toys that will do that. Yes, interesting, but my work-horse critter gitters are way better than that and they're VERY interesting to ME! Zeke | |||
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I have to side with Ray on this one! Zeke | |||
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Fact is, most guys don’t shoot enough to be sub MOA shooters anyway. I’ve worked up loads for any number of friends rifles that don’t reload. One time many years ago, a friend gave me his Ruger 77 boat paddle, for me to load up 50 rounds for him. ‘Twas a 300 win mag, and to my surprise, I was able to put together a load using 180’s (can’t remember the bullet now), very quickly. So, before I was done, it was printing half moa pretty easily. So, he meets me at the range, and I set up the bench for a solid set up. He’s more of a shoot it off the hood of the truck guy. Anyway, I set the gun in a bulls bag, and he sits behind it, and proceeds to shoot about a 4” group, 100 yds of course. I can see after he shoots another lousy group, that he’s doubting my reloading prowess. At that point, I tell him to get the fuck out of the way, and I sit down and shoot a little 3 shot cloverleaf, of about 3/8”. He then starts complaint about how he hurt his thumb yesterday, and that’s why he suddenly can’t shoot… Yes, accurate rifles are interesting, but only to the guys who are capable of shooting them accurately. | |||
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thats pretty funny right there! | |||
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I sold ("sold" being a kissing cousin to "giving it away") my most interesting gun. It was a vintage .32-40 Winchester Model 94 with an octagon barrel that (I believe) was 26 inches. It was not nearly as accurate as any rifle now in my safe, but it was a real hoot to shoot and interesting because of it's age (not unlike Ray  ), at least to me.Selling it for a few bucks was the folly of a very foolish, very young man . . . as was my selling of my old Savage 99 in .303 Savage, with that pesky buckhorn rear sight that obscured just about everything in front of it. The Savage also got few points for accuracy, but it was light as a feather and very easy to carry. And the previous owner took quite a few deer with it for subsistance, all the while believing it was the hammer of Thor. But neither rifle was "cool" or "interesting" according to the standards of the time. There were too many "better" rifles to be had. I guess "interesting" and "accuracy" are both in the eye of the beholder. | |||
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Buying odds and ends does give someone a chance to try a bullet they haven’t used before and see if it works. Admittedly, I personally buy broken boxes of bullets only for stuff that I’ve already worked up and can’t find. Handgun bullets are something I don’t worry too much about everything being the same, as for my purposes I usually check that they shoot roughly to the same POA and use them interchangeably. For pistol games fine accuracy (like 2-4 MOA or better) isn’t necessary. For my 3gun rifle, there are a bunch of odds and ends that go into the “short range speed” pile as shooting at an IPSC target at 10 feet has essentially zero accuracy issues. But I’m not the target market for most of the broken lot sales, which I take as primarily, here’s some bullets and if someone wants them, they get out of my hair type sales. I’ve got a couple of boxes of older hunting bullets (mostly old x bullets) that I can’t convince myself to scrap, but as they are the old style, I’m not going to work them up as it would use most of them up doing so, and then what do I do with them? Maybe I should sell them, but I’m too busy to respond quickly, and folks get upset when they buy something and it takes you 2 weeks to ship, so they sit on the shelf waiting for my retirement, and then maybe I will sell them or else bang away dreaming of when I hunted with that rifle… | |||
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Every time I shoot I too have a sore thumb. I feel his pain. | |||
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I have a couple of accurate rifles (by my admittedly loose standards), and a recently acquired Stevens Favorite that is never going to shoot like a Baity Falcon. It does have a 6 o'clock firing pin like a Falcon, though, and interesting guts that can be maintained in an unheated garage with a dirt floor... TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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What I observe is that, like Col Whelen, many AR members do not know the meaning of "interesting". As well as having a "West" bias where all shots are 400 plus yards across canyons, and yes, I have done that too. And the definition of "accuracy" having been established as sub MOA, those who subscribe to that are limited to scoped bolt actions; having eliminated such rifles as Lever Actions, Flintlocks, 1857 Greene Rifles that the cartridge has the powder in FRONT of the bullet with Lancaster Oval rifling (If you don't find that interesting, there is no hope for you), and other esoteric small arms that I use (and find very interesting) and others find useful in hunting, and shooting in places where a long shot is 50 yards. Owning and shooting only scoped bolt actions that shoot sub MOA (and I build them at least 6 a year that will do that), is not interesting; it's boring. At least I know my Win 94s, M1 Garands, 1855 Harpers Ferry, and other non-interesting rifles are safe. My last post on Col Whelen's poorly thought out dictum. | |||
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Lots of interesting guns out there that aren’t sub moa, but since this is the reloading section, I think most strive to bring out the best accuracy. For me at least, that’s the reason I started reloading to begin with, control of the final product. I like lever guns too, as well as single shots, that don’t print em small. Heck, my AR’s aren’t gonna win any small group awards, but they are a blast to shoot. | |||
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Yes. If I hadn't been such an idiot and had kept my two interesting rifles, the only way I could shoot either the .32-40 Win or the .303 Savage would be by reloading. | |||
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I think there are a couple of things to consider here. #1 In Whelen's days there were few or any MOA *HUNTING* rifles. #2 As DCPD brought out not everyone hunts in an area where long shots are possible. I have hunted New York for many, many years. Have shot quite a few deer and only 1 of many was app. 90 yds. The rest werE from 10 feet to under 50 yds. Accuracy is subjective! My club members think that sitting in a tree stand or ground blind for 8 hours is hunting. They have no idea what STILL HUNTING is or what a Deer DRIVE is. Why do you think cartridges like the .30-30, .300 Savage etc. were so popular for DEER hunting years ago----NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE CAPABLE OF 1" GROUPS. Hip | |||
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Hipshoot makes some astute observations. what was considered "accurate" in Whelen's time would be pretty Meh by today's standards. My least accurate rifle is an old Model 81 Woodsmaster. It doesnt get out much, but it definitely qualifys as interesting. I dont think a rifle has to be accurate to be interesting, but it doesnt hurt.  AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I find it's fun to try and develop different bullets and powder combinations to see how accurate I can make them. That's all it is for me: fun. I find all rifles interesting unless they're auto-loaders, ugly, or both. | |||
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I shoot as many old winchesters as anyone,if they don't shoot at least 2 inches, I find out why, if not they go to the gun show, and I find one that will.. Its pretty damn ignorant to stand in judgment on anyone shooting for perfection, it seems to give them an excuse for being a lousy shot in many cases, a crutch of sorts.. Stop by my me casa, and shoot a iron sigted mod 94 in 30-30, 38-55, or 25-35, for one inch consistent groups or even my grandads 38-40 that shoots 2.5" Why would anyone take issue with someone striving for perfection in accuracy, besides that 6" gun is a recipe for a gut shot..  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I don't recall anyone "standing in judgement on anyone shooting for perfection" or taking "issue with someone striving for perfection in accuracy . . .." Did I miss something? | |||
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I think so?? however you are innnocent of such Im thinking..Interresting conversation btw..Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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