Does anyone know the FPS of the original 6.5 x 54 ammo that the 1903 MS sights were calibrated for in 160 grain (I believe Kynoch was 159)? I have a carbine.

I've heard 660 m/s which is 2,170 fps.

I have also seen some places that is might have been as high as 680-690 m/s.

I'm trying to replicate the load for the factory iron sights.

Any load data would be nice as well.

I purchased the last of MidwayUSAs 160 grain Hornadys last night. I heard they stopped making them and they are the closest to the Kynoch in shape.

By 1920 the problem with splitting cases had been largely resolved, whilst bullet quality slowly improved. Improvements in powders also enabled manufacturers to increase velocity slightly from the original 2230fps to 2330fps

thanks

I have no doubt I can hit 2,330.

Maybe I should have asked the question differently:

What FPS were the factory sights calibrated to? Mine was built in 1908.

Now ultimately, I have an adjustable peep sight and can use this instead of the iron sights.

I also sent a note to Kynoch to ask if they had the original FPS loadings.

Thanks!

I have some older RWS catalogues and there´s listed a Vo with ~2200f/s (668m/s) and the long 10,3g (159grs) round nose bullet.

Martin

According to COW, factory loaded 156s had a MV of 2460 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
According to COW, factory loaded 156s had a MV of 2460 fps.

That's very interesting Craigster. Did they say what length barrel that was fired from?

As I'm sure you know, the M/S 6.5 rifles came in a LOT of different barrel lengths. Many of the ones retailed by Gibbs in England, for instance had 26" or slightly longer barrels. Some I've owned had had barrels as long as 27+ inches.

I'd doubt any factory figure up near 2,500 fps was taken from a typical 1903 carbine. Most of the figures I saw from back then were as SmokinJ says, around 2,200 to 2.300 fps...some even lower.

Anyone have any 160 grain Hornady load data?

IMR 3031 25.3-1700fps, 26.8-1800fps,23.4-1900fps, 30.0MAX-2000fps

IMR 4064 26.9-1700fps, 28.5-1800fps, 30.0-1900fps, 31.5-2000fps, 33.0MAX-2100fps

IMR 4895 27.0-1700fps, 28.6-1800fps, 30.1-1900fps, 31.6MAX-2000fps.

IMR 4320 27.4-1700fsp, 28.9-1800fps, 30.5-1900fps, 32.0-2000fps, 33.6MAX-2100fps.

H380 28.5-1700fps, 30.1-1800fps, 31.6-1900fps,
33.2MAX-2000fps.

IMR 4350 30.6-1700fps, 32.3-1800fps, 34.0-1900fps, 35.6-2000fps, 37.3-2100fps, 39.0MAX-2200fps.

IMR 4831 32.8-1700fps, 34.3-1800fps, 35.8-1900fps, 37.4-2000fps, 38.9-2100fps, 40.4MAX-2200fps.

Out of Hornady manual dated 1967

No barrel length was listed. Also, I just noticed that the 2460 fps given was a Norma loading, and Norma seems to load warm stuff. And I should have probably said FWIW considering the info was from COW. Not that the info in the COW series is bad, but I do think some of it was/is speculative.

You need to try your rifle with your ammo.
There is no guarantee that different ammo loaded with different components will shoot to your sights. There is nothing unusual about different loads shooting 4 or 5 inches apart.

BTW you might check the Hogdon site for loading data. The newer IMR 4007 might be a pretty good powder for the 6.5X54 MS if you can find data.

Hodgdon's online loading data doesn't have the 6.5x54MS listed. Not sure their manuals do, I'll have to look. I knew my older Hornady manual had it.

I know a fair number of the older manuals carried data for the 156 qnd/or 160 grain bullets...any of them printed up until about 1960-'65 would be a good candidate for having some.

The Lyman #43 manual for instance lists these for the 160 gr. jacketed bullet

IMR 3031, suggested load 30 grains 1,900 fps
max load 32 grs 2,089 fps

IMR 4064, suggested load 31 grs. 1,990 fps
max load 34 grs. 2,211 fps

IMR 4895, suggested load 30 grs. 1,964 fps
max load 33 grs. 2098 fps

H380, suggested load 32 grs. 1,894 fps
max load 35 grs. 2,019 fps

Ball C-1, suggested load 29 grs. 1,932 fps
max load 33 grs. 2,009 fps

These loads were taken, presumably, from a M/S carbine. The Lyman #44 manual lists similar loads, but with velocities up to about 100 fps faster...that load data was developed in a M/S rifle, NOT a carbine, so I didn't bother to list it

Thanks!

I should have mentioned the loads I posted were from a carbine with 18 inch barrel.

I'd like to say this too. I built a 6.5x54MS on a Savage action with a premium stainless barrel. Look at other similar cartridge, like the 6.5 Jap and the recent 6.5 Grendel, the 6.5MS seemed a little slow. I figured this was due to it's low pressure loading from decades ago and with a strong modern action that one could boost it up to higher velocity..or a velocity equal to the 6.5 Jap. I was wrong. For some reason the 6.5MS develops pressure fast and dangerous when trying to modernize it. So be careful in you reloading of it and watch for pressure signs as you would your loads up. I thought my old Hornady book had hot loads compared to modern data, but those Lyman loads are even hotter that Albert gave. The Hornady book, of course used a Hornady 160 grain bullet. Other brands may have more or less bearing surface to raise or lower the pressure.

You are welcome, Austin. Here is another source:

?...6.5mm...6.5mm%20Caliber%20Reloading%20Data - Cached - Similar

The best modern source of all is probably Ken Water's loose leaf large format book "Pet Loads". He has a section in there on the 6.5 M/S. I no longer have a copier or a scanner, or I'd just copy the whole 6.5 M/S section and e-mail it to you. Maybe someone else here can do that...I know lots of them have Ken's big book. It is also available from Wolfe Publishing and is very good material on dag-nab near any cartridge you can think of that was ever popular in America...

And speaking of America, Phil Sharpe's huge classic on handloading and ammunition in general also has data for it, though I much prefer Ken's book which is much less out-of-date and at least 200% easier to find anything in.

I forget what site it is that you become a member that has all the data. My friend is a member and he sent me all the reloading data on the 6.5MS from all the manuals and data available. I lost it of course. I'll ask him what site that is.

BTW, I agree again with SmokinJ - the 6.5 M/S is a small and not traditionally very strong case, generally. It is one of those cartridges where it is essential to really start low and work up your loads in very small increments.

I would recommend finding at least three "book" sources, averaging their starting loads, and beginning with that average or slightly less.

With the small capacity, the long bearing surface of the heaviest bullets, their high inertia and sctional density, and the not overstrong brass, the smallest thing such as a much harder jacket, a thicker jacket, a bullet slightly oversize, or who knows what, MIGHT put a load already close to maximum right over the edge into a trouble zone.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Hodgdon's online loading data doesn't have the 6.5x54MS listed. Not sure their manuals do, I'll have to look. I knew my older Hornady manual had it.

I just checked the older Hodgdon manuals #1 and up, through #18. Up until #14, none of them list ANY data for ANY 6.5 cartridge with ANY Hodgdon powder. Number 18 finally has data for several 6.5s, but not the 6.5 M/S.

I guess that tells us all a little something about just how popular some of the metric bores used to be in the U.S. They were here all right, and some "sophisticates" used them, but not the hoi polloi.

SmokinJ -

I know wolfe Publishing advertises such a membership handloading site in both Handloader and Rifle magazines. Perhaps that it it? Maybe if you could look up the ad in one of your recent issues the name would ring a bell?

Not trying to be a smart ass, just trying to help.

I have new manufactured brass for it Albert. It's PMC.

I had a 1903 orignal sporter with 24 inch barrels that shot 160 gr Hornadys at 2200 fps & the same loads shoot at around 2020 fps from my 18 inch carbine.

BTW I use the .268 diameter bullets as that is what the bore slugged at.

The original 6.5x54 MS was a military round.
The original Loading and spec was:
159.3 gr RN FMJ bullet of 0.263 inch diameter, 1.24 inches long.
The load was 36 gr Rotweill R1 powder Loaded to a max chamber pressure of 44,000 psi.

The velocity on the carbine was 2220 fps.

The barrel was a 4 grooved 1:7.874 Inch twist barrel. The groove diameter was .256 and the land diameter ( bore) was .2495 inches or a 6.33 mm bore)

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The original 6.5x54 MS was a military round.
The original Loading and spec was:
159.3 gr RN FMJ bullet of 0.263 inch diameter, 1.24 inches long.
The load was 36 gr Rotweill R1 powder Loaded to a max chamber pressure of 44,000 psi.

The velocity on the carbine was 2220 fps.

The barrel was a 4 grooved 1:7.874 Inch twist barrel. The groove diameter was .256 and the land diameter ( bore) was .2495 inches or a 6.33 mm bore)

Alf
You might want to proof the land and groove values.

The Original Greek Mannlicher's bore as well as the model 1900 was a strange affair with rounded lands, I rechecked:

The groove diameter was .256 inches (6.5mm) with bore diameter of 0.2495 inches or 6.33 mm.

The depth of the grooves 0.0065mm, truelly a micro grooved barrel.

This barrel was also used in the Dutch rifle and the later Roumanian Rifle ( the not the early Roumanian with it's 0.0095mm depth grooves. The early Roumanian rifle mod 1893 had a groove depth of 0.0059 inches that was changed to 0.0065 inches for a groove dimension of .256 inches. The bullet for this rifle was .2637mm for same rifling twist.

The Model 1903 ( Greek) rifle and it's twin the model 1900 Mannlicher with "trommel" magazine "Trommel" in German meaning box was with some slight modifications basically the sporting MS made in Austria.

The Italian Carcano 6.5 was not a true 6.5 but a 6.8mm with a gain twist barrel starting a 1:19.25 down to 1:8.25

There is some conjecture as to who designed the famous magazine, most ascirbe ir to Otto Schoenauer however there is evidence that it was preceded by a design by one Otto Spitalski who was head Engineer at the Styer works.

The Mannlicher Schopenauer 1903 and subsequent models had the 6.5X54 with a nominal 0256 bore and .264 or 268 diameter. reading Ken Waters' Pet Loads prompted me to this issue and I found that my rifles slugged at 268 like the Carcano.

BTW Mannlicher also made their 1952 model rifles in .358 Win with .366 inch grooved barrel (9.3mm) - again as per Ken Waters' Pet Loads.

Nakihunter:

I am confused: What is a "nominal" bore and you are giving two dimensions .264 and .268 what are you referring to?

Bore is defined as the diameter of the hole that gets drilled into a barrel, usually after it is drilled the rifling is cut so that the land to land measurement is defined as "bore" or "caliber" The german term for this is "feld" or "felder durchmesser' this was also termed the "Kaliber" of the barrel.

Groove is " Zug" and Groove diameter is "Zuggen durchmesser"

Now the Styer works hammer forged their barrels.

So they drilled the barrel blank and now placed a mandril with ribs (ie the negative of a rifled bore ) into the drilled bore and then cold hammer forged the barrel to give the bore. Hence their very shallow and rounded grooves. The 1903 MS barrel had a 4 groove right hand twist barrel.

The 6.5mm MS is not like other 6.5's its unique.

Mauser had their own 6.5x64 (not to be confused with the 6.5x54 MS) DWM case # 457A , the barrel dimension of this little 6.5 was a 6.44mm bore "Feld" and 6.64mm "Zug"

The Portuguese Mauser 6.5x58 had the same barrel

The Carcano was a 6.8mm bullet and as I say the barrel was a gain twist barrel with a "zug" of 0.2677 inches (6.8mm) and a bore of 6.5mm or .256.
It had very deep rifling !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The Original Greek Mannlicher's bore as well as the model 1900 was a strange affair with rounded lands, I rechecked:

The groove diameter was .256 inches (6.5mm) with bore diameter of 0.2495 inches or 6.33 mm.

The depth of the grooves 0.0065mm, truelly a micro grooved barrel.

This barrel was also used in the Dutch rifle and the later Roumanian Rifle ( the not the early Roumanian with it's 0.0095mm depth grooves. The early Roumanian rifle mod 1893 had a groove depth of 0.0059 inches that was changed to 0.0065 inches for a groove dimension of .256 inches. The bullet for this rifle was .2637mm for same rifling twist.

The Model 1903 ( Greek) rifle and it's twin the model 1900 Mannlicher with "trommel" magazine "Trommel" in German meaning box was with some slight modifications basically the sporting MS made in Austria.

The Italian Carcano 6.5 was not a true 6.5 but a 6.8mm with a gain twist barrel starting a 1:19.25 down to 1:8.25

There is some conjecture as to who designed the famous magazine, most ascirbe ir to Otto Schoenauer however there is evidence that it was preceded by a design by one Otto Spitalski who was head Engineer at the Styer works.

You still have your numbers mixed up.
The 6.5 MS is specified at 6.48mm land diameter X 6.78mm groove diameter. That is per CIP.

6.48 = .2551 inches
6.78 = .2669 inches

The bullet diameter is specified at .2637.
I have both a Dutch M95 Steyr manufactured carbine and rifle. Neither have your numbers.
They both have the .255 X .267 bore dimensions.

SR4759:

Please read my posts and answers:

The original question was what was the original velocity spec for the 6.5x54MS. I gave the original military spec for the cartridge. Not the UK based specs as loaded by Eley for what were called "british" 256's I have the original Eley loads as well but that was not what was asked for.

The CIP spec was adopted in 1984 not 1900 as we see in the model 1900 Manllicher rifle and its twin the Greek 1903.

The Dutch Mannlicher is not the Greek ! As have pointed out the 6.5x54 MS is an odd duck, it is unique and it does not comply to the basic premise that all of the old 6.5s bar of course the Carcano which is a 6.8mm at least have a 6.5mm groove to groove diameter

ALF,
No barrel will work with .0065 mm deep grooves.
That is only .00025 inches deep.

The CIP specifications for the 6.5X54 MS argree exactly with my Steyr manufactured Dutch rifles.
They both have their original barrels.
The carbine was made in 1900 and the rifle in 1896.

In your own post you said the Dutch rifle used the same barrel as the M-S. Wake up man.
You might want to admit that the Dutch rifles preceded the M-S of 1900 and the 1903 Greek rifle.

>>>>The Original Greek Mannlicher's bore as well as the model 1900 was a strange affair with rounded lands, I rechecked:

The groove diameter was .256 inches (6.5mm) with bore diameter of 0.2495 inches or 6.33 mm.

The depth of the grooves 0.0065mm, truelly a micro grooved barrel.

This barrel was also used in the Dutch rifle and <<<<

No one is going to try to shoot a .264 bullet through a .256 groove diameter barrel.
Are you dyslexic today?

SR4759:

Sorry my mistake I live in metric and all the .00xx numbers should be in inches, thus 0.0065 and 0.0059 inches for the two versions of the Roumanian rifle.

I too have a Dutch rifle which was Anglicized by WJ Jeffery.