I think I have finally met my match in a rifle I cannot make shoot.

Hot Core, El Deguello, Seafire learned gentlemen: first a libation

What it is, a German (JP Sauer) Weatherby in .300 Wea. in apparently very good condition. The single most unusual observation is that when repeating a load, same everything, and double scaled powder charges, the velocities can vary by 100 ft/sec's or slightly more. (Oehler 35P) I am thinking a bore scope would be most useful in that the rifle does foul rather quickly, and possibly the relative bore friction is that variable? Some of these loads have given small extreme spreads and single digit deviations. Bottom line is I'm out of ideas.

Another libation


many thanks

JB's bore paste...

How does it shoot with factory Weatherby ammo?

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308 Sako:

I don't know about learned Gentlemen, you must have been speaking about ElDequelo or Hot Core there...

But as for Seafire, I wouldn't worry about having deviation spreads of 100 fps or more if the rifle is shooting good with a certain powder.. My best load in a 6mm Rem is 47.5 grains of H 414, and a 75 grain HP Hornady.. which can have velocity spreads of 150 fps! Go figure, but I am happy enough with all the consistent one hole groups at 100 yds, I just don't fret the vast SD spread over the Chrony..

When I get a rifle that won't shoot.. after I have verified it doesn't have 5 inches of throat erosion, I check and make sure all the nuts and bolts are tightened, and that the barrel is not hanging up on the stock and that it is free floated... if it isn't, I hollow out the barrel channel..

Next thing I do is get out two powders that, if a rifle won't shoot an accuate load of some sort with them, then the barrel is south.. or the head space is south...Those two powders of course are Blue Dot and SR 4759...

Look up some loads on a Cast Bullet manual or on line...If the barrel and rifle are shooting some of those fine, then I move up to Reloader 7 and IMR 4198 loads... if I am getting accuracy out of those, then I know the barrel and action should be looking good...

I do have some barrels that are real hanger queens, but when you stumble upon the right load, they are one hole shooters...
a pair of 243s come to mind.. one Rem and one Model 70, both with factory barrels..

The Remington shoots loads that are way over redline just great, or shoots loads over 2200 fps by throwing them all over the place...It responded to Blue Dot just fine with all bullet weights...it also likes H 380 with an MV of 4000 fps with a 55 and 60 grain bullet...

The Winchester responded well to Blue Dot, but not as well as the Remington did... however it responded much better than the Remington did to SR 4759....

It also seems to like loads within the 2000 to 2600 fps range a lot... over that, it throws them all over the place...

While I am noticing success stories by measuring the MV of these loads, my personal theory it is has more to do with the Pressure of the load, and its pressure curve within the bullet's case during ignition...

another weird observation I have found with some powders, is that a barrel will get use to a powder after shooting a certain amount of rounds down the barrel utilizing that powder...

eg, the first 5 or 10 shots may not be that accurate, but after say that amount of shots, the groups start tightening up...makes no sense that has ever been explained to me, but I have seen that happening with a batch of different calibers, in a batch of different rifles, with a batch of different powders... I have no explanation why, but am reporting the results because I have seen it enough to believe it in my own personal loadings to try and make a gun shoot good...

Drop me a few more details in a PM and maybe I can see a few other things to make suggestions about it on...

good luck..and cheers,
seafire

308,

A libation......Cheers.

.300 Weatherby's - they can be a challenge at times. A couple of take-aways for your consideration.

Barrel heats up REAL fast, so I'd take a look at the typical German penchant for lots of metal/wood barrel/forearm contact. Great for one shot out of a cold barrel but when attempting ammo development with extended periods of 3 or 5 shot groups barrel cooling becomes a priority issue.

Like mentioned previously a good barrel cleaning with JB.

NE 450's advice is excellent. Scratched our heads a lot with the last .300 Weatherby, new brass, different powders, 4 bullets and about 25 variations of OAL later factory Remington ammo was plunking them into itty-biity clusters?

Gentlemen,thank you for your speedy responses.

What I as attempting to convey was that attempts to duplicate a loads performance (which is atrocious anyway) fail. Shoot 5 rounds, then load 5 identical rounds and get totally different chronograph results. Accuracy has been untrackable, so that's no help. While I have used JB to get a clean starting point, I did not really go to it. I am also curious as to possibly a carbon fouled bore?

Seafire I must agree with your observation in which a barrel conditions itself to a particular powder. I also agree that the ignition process (pressure curve) is a very important part of accuracy. I personally think that it keys directly to the harmonics being discussed elsewhere. Sort of the smack on the tube ringing... Perhaps I should allow the barrel to foul out, and see if consistancy is then found.

N E 450 No 2 That is going to be the next test, both Weatherby (Norma) and R-P brands.

Gerry, Inspection has shown a very nice rifle which appears to have seen marginal use over the years. I will however look way closer at the bedding. I am giving plenty of time for cooling between shots, as I spent 6 hours the first session for 30 rounds! Pain in the butt.

308.....

Sounds like a nice rifle.

All's not lost just yet, just persevere with that Weatherby it'll come around sooner or later.

The last .300 Weatherby I fiddled with was a friend's Sauer 202 synthetic. We free floated the barrel with copious grades of sandpaper applied liberally between bbl & forearm, closed the groups considerbaly but still haven't reached Nirvana with the reloads. He's happy using R-P factory, so I'm off the hook as far as load development is concerned and glad because best we could manage was about 1 1/2" groups which is O.K. for him but all my hunting rifles & loads shoot a bunch better than that.

Let us know how you get along with it.

Hey 308Sako, You might want to try feeling the Bore Condition to see if you can detect any roughness near the throat which could be a simple Carbon Ring or a Fried Bore.

You would want the following items:
1. A rifle with a known good Bore for comparison.
2. A cleaning rod.
3. A 22cal Jag for use in the 30cal Bore.
4. Paper Shop Towels to make Patches with.

You can get Blue Paper Shop Towels about anywhere. Only problem with them is when you use them for cleaning the Bore, the Blue color hides any Copper Residue you might be removing. So, I actually prefer to get the White Paper Shop Towels from Lowe’s or Home Depot.

You want the Paper Shop Towels because they are tougher than regular Kitchen Paper Towels and help prevent punch-throughs when getting them formed to the Bore. And, you can sometimes adjust the Patch a bit tighter once you get it Formed by carefully removing it from the Jag and adding 1-2 layers of a Kitchen Paper Towel over the Jag and then putting the Paper patch back on.

Anyway, cut the Paper Shop Towels to Patch size and Fold one over the Jag a couple of times. Then press it into the Bore so it gets Formed a bit. Now you can tighten the Patch by adding one more layer to the outside or inside of the Formed Patch. You will get the hang of it as you mess with it a bit.

Once you have a nice tight Paper Patch, slowly ease it through the Lead into the Bore. The Paper Patch is a bit rougher than a Cotton Patch and you can actually feel if there is a Carbon Ring or rough spot near the beginning of the Lands.

Compare what you feel with a known good Bore until you get an idea what this actually feels like.

If it does feel rough, then good old JB Compound might fix it up(as was already mentioned). You can also use Bon Ami non-scratching kitchen cleaner made into a paste with your favorite Bore Cleaner or any Whitening Tooth Paste to scrub the Rough Spot. If you do the Scrubbing, also use Paper Patches since they are more abrasive than Cotton, but not enough to hurt the Bore.

Have you tried more than one Bullet Weight?

More than one Powder?

308 sako, i think its the barrel from all your info, many people don''t clean their barrels as they should for umtine reason''s yes its probaly carbon fouled and copper fouled maybe even pitted, thats 3 nasty chaps that''ll pull any good reloaders hair out, 1st i''d advise you too clean the barrel with barnes cr-10 then follow up with a normal cleaning with your usual cleaning routine, then grabb that JB paste and clean her 3 times, one times consists of a tight cotton or flannel patch,coated very well, run her threw the barrel back and forth = 1 stroke do this 20 times, then redo a new patch 4 another 20 repeat again then clean normally to clean out the JB , this will get her down to very clean metal, then go shoot her, i''m reloading for a vanguard 300 weatherby the rifles new and i still jb and cleaned her the same as i told you 2 do,neglected bores can be a pain thats 4 sure ifin this doesn''t help i''d say pitch that tube, regards and keep us posted . jjmp

Gerry, thanks once again. It is the bedding I'll inspect closely before the next range session.

Hot Core, you are right there with my thinking at this point, Carbon is the culprit! I would say that my impression with patches is that there is more initial resistance, for a longer duration (2 soaked patches) before the bore feels that break away of surface crud and the clean push. My slick as a baby's bottom is my Rem VSSF .308 with 2500 rounds down the tube still holds 1/2 MOA! If not that one, one of the Hart tubes will more than suffice.

As to loads, I've tried 200 Accubonds, 180 Ballistic tips, and 150 Ballistic tips. Powders are IMR 4831, & 7828 as well as R22. Been meticulous and keep notes and targets, scan'd the targets into a word document and recorded all the chrono/load data as well.

jjmp, I am a little slow to go the total route because I have soaked and cleaned and soaked and cleaned this tube three times till no copper color came for several days. I leave it soaking with Shooters Choice after through cleaning with Butches and various copper removers. I have also used JB in a more normal maintainence style application. To give an idea of how fresh the tube is, there appears to be some bluing in the grooves and on top of the lands. Visual inspection (peeking down the bore from the chamber end) (real scientific I know) would seem to indicate a good straight bore, with sharp rifling. I did not seat a bullet out so long as to engage the rifling as a hunting rifle all loads must function thru the action at loaded length. So I didn't see how sharp they would cut on engaging.... Now that's an idea to follow as well.



Appreciate the information and advice, and now let me stand you a libation...

308 sako, thanks for your answer,i think you''ll crack this nut and the case will bee solvid, in my best peter sellers IMITIATION . regards jjmp

Solvid, Ah yes.how sweet it would be.

Hey 308Sako, Back when I shot a whole lot of H870 with 150gr bullets in a 7mmRemMag it would create a nearly impenetrable Residue in the Bore. I'd scrub and scrub for days on end.

Eventually saw the answer from Bruce Hodgdon in a magazing and he suggested using the Bon Ami Paste mixture I described above. It really cut through the H870 Residue like nothing else.

Since your rifle is a 300WbyMag, maybe the previous owner also used a slower powder with lighter bullets resulting in something similar. I do believe you are on the right track with the 180-200gr bullets for use in it. I probably would have tried H1000, but only because I've used a whole lot of it over the years.
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When I use the JB Compound, Bon Ami Paste or Toothpaste to scrub the Bore, I do it a bit different than "jjmp". I take a new Bore Brush, measure the diameter and write it down. Then I wrap the brush with one Cotton Patch so the bristles will go through the patch, but the patch stays high enough to help hold the scrubbing compound up near the tips.

This will actually wear down the length of the bristles fairly quickly in a brand new factory barrel, within 50-75 full strokes. As the barrel looses it's roughness, the Bore Brush will not wear away as rapidly. So...., if you were to make 50-75 strokes and the Brush did not get noticably smaller in diameter, you have a relatively smooth Bore. But that is different from Powder Residue, copper or general crud in the barrel.

I also prefer a pristine clean Bore and like jjmp don't agree with the folks who believe it is OK to leave the Bore Fouled or Dirty. Of course as long as you can see copper in the Bore, it is still fouled:

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
To give an idea of how fresh the tube is, there appears to be some bluing in the grooves and on top of the lands.

That means there is still Copper Residue in the Bore as long as you see the Blue.

The JB Compound will definitely remove the copper and Residue if you have some of it. Just be careful at the muzzle, cause you can't "reverse" a new brush while it is still inside the Bore without bending the bristles, or I guess I should say, I can't. And once it exits the muzzle, I use my other hand to help center it in the Bore before I pull it back through.
---

You just never know what a "Used Firearm" has been subjected to, so it is wise to be cautious concerning anything about it.

quote:

That means there is still Copper Residue in the Bore as long as you see the Blue.

Not necessarily so. I take his meaning to bethat when the barrel was blued, along with the rest of the rifle's metal the inside of the barrel was blued also. While it may look good to a buyer, blueing inside a barrel doesn't do much for accuracy, I did work for a gunsmith for a while until he passed away, and he was adamant the the inside of a barrel should not be blued. He took great pains to insure the barrel was plugged tightly enough that blueing did not occur inside the barrel.
I know that sounds weird, but but he felt quite strongly about it.
While I'm thinking about it, it just struck me that maybe the problem is the scope. I had a Winchester M70 in 7x57 that the fellow I bought it from swore that it was extremely accurate. I put on a brand new Leupold 4X on the rifle and groups were similar to what has been described. I had my gunsmith glass bed the gun, do a trigger job, and for all I know, he also slaughters a goat and poured the blood over the rifle while chanting strange ritual words. The gun still was erratic as hell. All the screws wee tight, what could it be? Did the guy I bought the gun from lie about the accuracy? All that was left to do was switchs copes. If that didn't fix things, the gun was gonna go. UI loaded up a box of ammo and went to the range. After sighting in just enough to insure I would be on the paper at 100 yards, I carefully squeezed off three rounds. You could cover the group with a dime. Two more shots enlarged the group that now a nickel was needed to cover the holes. The offending scope was sent back to leupold and I got it back in just about week, fixed.
So far, the only bullet that will not stay in an inch or less is the 150 gr. Winchester bulk Power Points. Everything else will print one inch of less. Methinks that rifle is a keeper.
Me also thinks that the scope just might be the problem. it's certainly worth a look see.
Paul B.

If I have a really dirty barrel, or a new used gun, I first use brass brush with the old stinky carburetor cleaner. This stuff will eat your fingers, stock finish, etc., but it will get the carbon out. Next follow with good copper solvent until the patches come out clear, then repeat the carburetor cleaner...
Sometimes this stuff seems to build up in layers, carbon residue, copper, carbon, etc.
Just a thought.
C.G.B.

quote:

JB's bore paste...

I'll second that. I would run at least 100 passes if not more.

Paul B, I have switched the scope to a known performer to no avail. However, I am currently scouring the countryside for a suitable sacrificial goat, and the necessary shaman to adminster the rites!

cgbach, Thanks I am going to be working on the still fouled beyond all dreams issue.

SD, Yup, JB my old friend.

I believe that a major source of variation in performance from large cartridges like the .300 Weatherby is that the case volumes are so large.

Of course, other factors may be at work in YOUR rifle, such as throat wear. How many rounds have been shot in it?

El Deguello, Unfortunately this is a used rifle which my Brother in law has purchased from a friend. I don't have any way to determine it's past history other than examination, trial and error. Returning to NY midweek, and will be following up on the carbon theory and rechecking the bedding. Also will try some factory ammunition from the various manufacturers.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this and probably pretty hard, but I've been in the same situation myself with my .300 RUM as you have with your 300 WBY. I am considering doing the following myself.

I have read some reviews over at long range hunting where they ran that Tubbs final finish kit through the bore. Using only half of of the total bullets given in the "package". There were claims of accuracy pickup while using it and some members swear by it.

This may be something to consider if nothing else is working. At the very least you could shoot the very least abrasive compounds to smoothe the barrel out a little bit. If the barrel is crap then you really have nothing to loose anyway.

Waffen, I am a great believer in the fact that the bores relative smoothness will affect accuracy and fouling beyond our expectations. Two years ago working with a brand new Ruger #1 in .270 I had many similar issues and knew that the bore was unfired prior to my working with that rifle. I ultimately used a combination of polishing rouge and patches to "lap" the bore. Yes, I know that kitchen table smithing is something which is looked upon with great distain, so I did it in y shop with a rifle cradle and the appropriate prayers and shaman in attendance. Rifle now shoots sub MOA at great velocity with the bullet of choice, the Nosler 140 Accubond. There was no other factor having a greater effect than the bore condition of this rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
...I know that kitchen table smithing is something which is looked upon with great distain, so I did it in my shop ...

Hope you are not using an electronic scale/measurer with fluroscent lights and getting some bad powder weights!

aktoklat, Funny you should mention that... I suspected something in the charge weights area and have been using the Dillon electronic, and then the 505 balance to double check each charge. Anal I am, and they did match to the .1 of a grain (something which franky surprised me!) I also first recalibrated the electronic, and allowed time for it to warm up. The second thing I do is always look at the reading after removing the pan in order to determine if the negitive value remains the same, it will drift. Then I re-zero the scale and begin again.

If the purpose of the gun is big game hunting then limit the testing to recording the location of the first shot from a cold barrel and then limit groups to two or three shots from a cold barrel.

Get some factory ammo and see how it does. Change your primers and check everything else including neck tension and if there is sizing lube in some necks and not the others.

How do the fired primers look? Is the firing pin detent near the center? Is it the same on all cases?

Finally the most important thing is to check that everything is tight before starting shooting.

What do you mean that the accuracy is not trackable?

There are a lot of things that could be wrong in addition to those mentioned by me and others. The crown might be bad, the scope, the aiming, the firing pin spring or pin etc. You will find it in the last place you look or sell the gun.

I had a Sauer made MKV 378 and it was very accurate. I can't stand that design however.

After a very through cleaning, and complete visual inspection, I shot 11 rounds of 180 Ballistic Tip, R22 loads today without cleaning. Tried to vary the fore end pressure by putting some tape shims in the barrel channel, and also under the action without any in the channel. Glad I put so little effort into the non-response I got for the efforts. Next at bat will be the Brother in Law (his rifle) and factory ammuntion, and his shoulder. That for me is a happy ending!