I have a problem: I have quite a bit of AA 2200. I am trying to develop two different 300gr JHP loads with this powder. The first load is 32.5gr of 2200, the second is 50gr of 2200. Both use CCI large rifle primers. My problem is this. I chrono'd both, and they both showed well over 300fps veriation in a 5 shot string. I have never seen this kind of variation. These are the recommended high and low pressure loads listed by Accurate Arms. Any thoughts on what could be wrong? Anyone have this problem with this powder? Gun is a 1895 guide gun witha 18.5" barrel and porting.

I had this problem once in the 45-70. Not with that powder though. In my case the variation was worse with the lighter charge, and disappeared with heavier bullets. I cured it, by using a dacron wad (quilt batting, have also used Kapok) over the powder, as recomended by Lyman. You can mess around cutting it, and weighing it, I just ripped off a small piece big enough to loosly fill the case, and stuffed it in.
Note that the wad will increase pressure to some degree so use the usual precautions.

Cannuck is right. The powder is changing its relationship to the primer quite a bit load to load. The filler is one way to approach this problem as it will hold the powder in the same relationship to the primer, round after round.

However, I am not a "believer" in fillers. Yeah, they work, mostly, and are safe when properly done, mostly, and won't damage the gun, mostly. BUT, they are one more thing to go wrong so I prefer, whenever possible, to find a powder that comes to at least 80-90% loading density in the given case with the given bullet. Just works better in and out of the field.

I am only getting ready to load the .45-70 myself. My loads will be used in a 24" TC Contender. I'm looking at H322 as my primary propellant.

You might try using a heavy crimp with a Lee factory crimp die. You'd be surprised how great these little dies work. Also, make sure the expander plug is not oversized. Make sure it is no larger than .455". A tight neck and good crimp will work wonders at decreasing extreme spread.

Bigbore:
I am bellmouthing the cases quite a bit to get the bullets seated without crinkling the case. I am putting a rather heavy crimp onthe neck though, and I am using Lee dies. Do you think the bellmouthing could be a problem. If so, how do you seat the bullet without harming the case?

Just for interest sake, my rifle likes Rel 7, and H4198 far better than any others.

micmac.....my best advice is to quit trying to drag around a dead horse.....the powder you are trying to use isn't suitable for the application.

The other powders mentioned are probably the 3 best around....personally I've had the best and most consistent results with RL7.

micmac,

I experienced the same problem you've encountered with lite loads in a big case round. I loaded lite in the 450 Alaskan and large velocity variations was just a minor problem. I was getting hangfires and misfires, very disturbing when the round goes off a second after the firing pin hits the primer. After reading considerable data regarding reduced loads, as to high pressure spikes, I went up to moderate to heavy loads and the problem disappeared. The reduced loads I tried were from listed tables and not something I developed. Treat reduced loads with the same respect as heavies. Be veryyyy careful!

Good luck in your handloading efforts.

Roger QSL

A bell just large enough to start a bullet is all that's needed. Any more just works the brass too much and leads to premature neck splits, but I doubt you are belling so much as to adversely affect neck tension, but I would not guarentee it. You might try backing off on the bell to the point that you can just start the bullet base in the neck (about 1/32") and see if that helps. I have never crumpled a case using just a minor amount of bell, but do expect to see a bulge in the case where the base of the bullet is, that is perfectly normal.
Another poster mentioned your powder choice and I have to admit that I have no knowledge of that powder for use in the .45-70. The powders that I find to work extremely well are H335 and H322 with extreme spreads usually in the low teens or even single digits. Both of these give pretty good velocities along with more than acceptable accuracy. I like H322 in the 15" Contender and H335 in loads for my rifles. If decreasing the amount of bell and the other things mentioned don't help, you might try another powder. Good luck.

Here's an update: These loads are from the AA manual: they are not reduced loads. The 50gr load takes up a normal amount of case capacity. No hang-fires or erratic ignition was seen with any of these loads. I spoke with a ballistician at accurate arms today, and he said they had never seen these kinds of problems. He suggested using Dacron filler, but couldn't tell me if they'd used this when working up their loads. This afternoon I decided to try it again (40 grains AA2200). I made sure to load the rounds singly, not from the magazine. All five rounds were crimped carefully with a medium heavy crimp. As before, all charges were weighed by hand, not metered. The first four rounds were very close, all within 20 fps of 1400 fps. Then the 5th shot registered 1600fps. It isn't a chrono error. Muzzle blast and recoil were noticeably greater. I think I’m done with this powder for the 45/70. Dacron won’t help with the heavy loads, as excess case volume isn’t an issue. Any more thoughts are welcome.

Try Accurate Arms XMP 5744 powder. Great for loading the 45-70. NO fillers needed. Very accurate loads. Info on their web site as well as in their manuals.

I bought a case of Accurate Arms 5744 at less than a buck a pound when it was an unknown surplus powder. Shot up most of it in a Shaw barreled Siamese Mauser under bullets cast in a 405 grain Lee HP mould. It gave me under 2" accuracy at a hundred yards when I learned to use a soft gas check under the bass of the bullet. Never chronographed it, but there could not have been much variation at that level of accuracy with bullets I took no particular pains with.

Maybe it is because AA-2200 is not really a suitable powder for your loads?

Try:
AA-2015 From 53.1 grains to 59.0 grains
Winchester WLR Primer
AA-2495 From 59.4 grains to 66.0 grains
Winchester WLR Primer
AA-2700 From 58.5 grains to 65.0 grains
Winchester WLR Primer
AA-3100 From 63.0 grains to 70.0 grains
Winchester WLR Primer
AA-4350 From 63.0 grains to 70.0 grains
Winchester WLR Primer
AA-5744 From 28.6 grains to 40.1 grains
Winchester WLR Primer

Silly me, I'm using 43gr./3031 (Kicks a bit though) in an 1895 lever gun.

My favorite "sneaker" load is 2gr/bullseye with a paper disc to keep it down on the flash hole and a 500GR projo. It sounds like a cap gun. Limit the range to 25 Yds.or so. OG

Hey Gringo Viejo

Ever try that load with lighter projos . . . like say 340 Lee or 325 RCBS?

OK, now just 8-10 more rounds I have to get loaded and shoot on Saturday to test this . . . Dang no Bullseye, thank goodness there is Red dot!!

Gotta win this new TN Lottery so I can just get a jug or two of EVERY powder!

LouisB

Will shoot for FUN!

[ 11-06-2002, 10:19: Message edited by: TCLouis ]

TC: The paper disk is the secret. Use any fast powder, just be sure to use the disk. I sharpened an old .45ACP case and use it. Push and twist. Use any magazine type, thin but stiff paper.

Oh, Yea! I have used 230gr round nose from a .45ACP. Paper patched.

I use a small strip of very thin, almost see through paper (or Onion skin) to wrap the driving band section.

You want to cut it about 1/2" wide, and long enough to wrap around twice. Cut ends to butt evenly. Soak in water for ten minutes. place the paper high enough to be where you crimp the case. Mash extra paper around base.

You might want to push it in a loading block hole to dry.

I have even tried SARAN Wrap.....Worked too.

Let us know how it works. OG

51.8 of RL 7 and Fed 210M primers with 350 Grain Horndy FN crimp using Lee factory Crimp Die

MOA Load and 1975 FPS
Excellent moose and Bear load in my Marlin GG
45-70

Old Gringo, are you using 43 gr of 3031 under a 405 lead? I use 53-54 under the Hornady 300 HP and my 1895 shoots an honest 1" with a Weaver K3W. I gave a box of the 405 loads to a buddy after my shoulder refused to allow me to use them anymore from the bench... But the point to be made is that 3031 is one of if not the best powders I have found for my Marlin 45-70 combo. You can cobble together loads using a wide variety of components, especially if you have to, but there are optimum combinations under optimum acquisition circumstances