I have posted up earlier that I had gotten a Savage 7mm-08 Model 11 for a fun gun. I shot three boxes of shells and it never held a pattern inc the front bedding screw kept working loose.

Lots of being pissed off I sent the gun back to Savage and supposedly they put a new barrel on this rifle after waiting several months. My son has this model gun for 13 years and it is a left handed tack driver.

I shot couple of rounds thru this gun and got an unexcited pattern.

Working on the gun and I was going to set up a few hand loads and ran into this problem.

I have reloaded for years and had to go to a heavy "full" resize instead of the usual partial resize to get the shells to fit in the rifle and not have that hard to close the bolt and some of these still have that problem.

I also have a new box of Hornaday Deer hunter loads that have that same but slightly less tight feeling closing the bolt.

I have tried both Hornaday and Remington brass. Funny Is some of the empty shells fit easily then I do the lite full resize and the brass is tight closing the bolt.

Not sure what the problem is if any but I have not had a rifle like this.

Is there a still problem?

I get a small consistent scratch on the shoulder of all the shells that cycle thru the gun.

Thanks for your opinion.

This can be normal. Depends on what you are doing.

You said " Funny Is some of the empty shells fit easily then I do the lite full resize and the brass is tight closing the bolt."

A partial resize has be done precisely.

If it is too "lite" as you say, you will just move the shoulder forward and this will make it hard to close the bolt or even impossible to do so.

Partial Full sizing needs to have the neck and shoulder at the same dimensions as your rifle chamber. Normally one would size the case 0.002 inch less. It has to be precise for every case you do.

I use the Hornady head space and bullet seating gause and this gives me the exact sized case and over all length ammo every single time.

See this and other videos for good information.

https://www.bing.com/videos/se...5E0D414&&FORM=VRDGAR

quote:

Originally posted by JimTx:
I have posted up earlier that I had gotten a Savage 7mm-08 Model 11 for a fun gun. I shot three boxes of shells and it never held a pattern inc the front bedding screw kept working loose.

Lots of being pissed off I sent the gun back to Savage and supposedly they put a new barrel on this rifle after waiting several months. My son has this model gun for 13 years and it is a left handed tack driver.

I shot couple of rounds thru this gun and got an unexcited pattern.

Working on the gun and I was going to set up a few hand loads and ran into this problem.

I have reloaded for years and had to go to a heavy "full" resize instead of the usual partial resize to get the shells to fit in the rifle and not have that hard to close the bolt and some of these still have that problem.

I also have a new box of Hornaday Deer hunter loads that have that same but slightly less tight feeling closing the bolt.

I have tried both Hornaday and Remington brass. Funny Is some of the empty shells fit easily then I do the lite full resize and the brass is tight closing the bolt.

Not sure what the problem is if any but I have not had a rifle like this.

Is there a still problem?

I get a small consistent scratch on the shoulder of all the shells that cycle thru the gun.

Thanks for your opinion.

I realize that the action is a little rough with the way Savage makes these mass produced guns but figured the difference in the cheap Axis and the Model 11 might be better with the action differences. I thought about going in and doing polishing and smoothing the bolt action if the rifle shoots well but why waste the time if it shoots poorly.

Did I piss off 550$ on a piece of CR-- on a cheap stock? If the gun shoots like my other rifles then I had planned to get a nice replacement stock to replace the one that feels like it came off a BB gun. Did I get one of the few duds that they make?

I was looking at the rifle this morning and the shells fired thru it for the most part before resizing. Cannot understand why the Hornady Deer hunter loads feel tight when worked thru the gun. I would guess stock ammo is made to fit about anything.



Let me ask "If the once fired cartridge loads after being shot thru this gun then with a partial resized the same shell feels tight cycling thru the rifle. Smoothest resized cartridge is when the cartridge is set to a full resize plus a hair. Is there a problem with the shoulder spacing with the new barell?

Hope some of you can help. I wanted a fun little light weight gun to shoot out to 300 and yards deer and varmint hunt with.

I plan to try it this weekend with some handloads if the loads do not get in that 1" group. When do you just punt sell a junker and get another better rifle and start over since I have about lost faith in this rifle.

Any suggestions welcomed.

Thanks, Jim

Savages usually shoot fine, and most do as well as any other factory rifle. If yours doesn't, it is actually not the norm for Savages. They do make them budget priced but the barrels are usually, good. Of course, a lemon occurs in any production product.
You can't "partially"size brass, usually. What happens is that the shoulder is pushed forward when the die makes the body smaller; the brass has to go somewhere; that is why they are hard to chamber. Your chamber is reacting normally; you are causing the issue.

Scratches on your brass is not a good thing. Have a smith with a bore scope look at your chamber.
Also, did you say the fired case fits easily back into the chamber after firing and then get "tight" after partial resizing?

Some dies and chambers are simply not compatible.

If your rifle has a chamber that is somewhat "wide" at the shoulder, while your FL die is somewhat narrower at the shoulder, then running the fired case into the die for "partial resizing" will squeeze the case shoulder, thus pushing it slightly forward, and in turn making it too long to re-chamber easily.

All chambers, dies, and factory ammunition are supposed to be within SAAMI specs, but that doesn't always happen. For instance, factories tend to start with somewhat oversized reamers so that the reamer can make more chambers before it is worn down to the point that its chambers are undersized.

So, if you get a barrel made with a brand new reamer then chances are that some dimensions of your chamber will be larger than desirable. If the manufacturer compensates for a new and oversized reamer by not running it quite as far into the barrel as would be typical, then you could very well get a chamber that is on the short side but has "fat" shoulders. This might cause the phenomenon you are experiencing.

For instance, I have a .375 H&H which refuses to chamber partially sized cases, but chambers neck or FL sized cases just fine. My FL resizing die is simply too narrow at the shoulder for my chamber (or my chamber is too wide at the shoulder for my die, whichever you prefer.)

The solution would be custom dies; but it is possible that simply changing brands of dies might also solve your problem -- I'm not knocking whatever brand you currently have, just observing that your particular die might not fit your particular chamber.

It is a strange deal. May try to just do a neck resize vs partial or full.
My Remington 270/280/7 mag all do great with a partial resize.

I have a set of RCBS dies.

I will load up some rounds and see what is going on. It may be best to just fig I got a lemon and sell it and move on if it does not shoot well.

I wanted to shoot the Hornaday 139 lead tipped bullets that are in the Deer hunter in this gun but I have some Nosler 140 solid base BTs to load too.
I hated to see it when Nosler went to the BT vs the old Nosler solid base lead tip. My guns shoot the partitions, sb all the same under an inch.

let me try another method of communication.

Firstly I suggest that you sit with an experienced reloader and go through this thread.

Secondly - 3 different people including myself have said that your "partial resizing" or "lite resizing" is pushing your case shoulder forward. THAT is your problem.

If you used the Hornady tool and measured a once fired case (the one that chambers correctly) and then measured a case that you partially sized, you will see a difference - probably 8 to 10 thou or more IMHO.

You say that a Full resize is the only thing that allows you to chamber a case without resistance. That means your rifle chamber has been cut at the lower end of SAAMI specs / tolerances.

We can keep theorising for ever. The ONLY conclusive proof is accurate measurement. Hence I suggested using the Hornady headspace tool as it is very easy to use and you will get exactly the same sized ammo every time.

At the moment we are discussing the subject without precise measurements to establish conclusive proof.

quote:

Originally posted by JimTx:
It is a strange deal. May try to just do a neck resize vs partial or full.
My Remington 270/280/7 mag all do great with a partial resize.

I have a set of RCBS dies.

I will load up some rounds and see what is going on. It may be best to just fig I got a lemon and sell it and move on if it does not shoot well.

I wanted to shoot the Hornaday 139 lead tipped bullets that are in the Deer hunter in this gun but I have some Nosler 140 solid base BTs to load too.
I hated to see it when Nosler went to the BT vs the old Nosler solid base lead tip. My guns shoot the partitions, sb all the same under an inch.

Yes, and the scratching of your shoulder as you describe is from FEEDING; nothing to do with the chamber.
Please stop partially sizing your brass for this rifle. Your other rifles are different; EACH rifle is different. Do not ever assume you can treat them the same in any way. They can't possibly be clones and neither are dies. Manage each one as a stand alone entity.

this is a good time to learn how to measure.

As stated above partial full length resizing can make the case longer than the chamber.

Look at the illustration below, you need to bump the case shoulder .001 to .002 "BELOW" the red dotted line.



When using a full length die and partially full length resizing you only size 1/2 to 3/4 of the neck. If the case is sized more than 1/2 to 3/4 it may squeeze the case shoulder forward.

And you are far better off full length resizing with minimum shoulder bump.

Below German Salazar is answering a question about "Partial Neck Sizing" and explains why full length resizing is better.


Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by German A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogsp...ial-neck-sizing.html

"Now the last scenario, a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway."

Below Kevin Thomas of Team Lapua USA.

Brass gets damaged by repeating resizing is not due to full length or neck sizing at all.

It is due to the difference in size between the chamber and the sizing die.

Some factory chambers are so sloppy, a brass case would never last very long be repeating being fired in it and then sized.

We have rifles with custom dies that seem to just keep going, without any hassle at ll.

We can get 15-20 reloads from each case without any problems.

Ackley's book has a chapter on dies. Think I was 16 when I read it the first time. Anyway, he discusses this very issue, and has the same take.

Stuff like this doesn't change with the times, evidently.

i have absolutely no qualifications for expressing an opinion here so i will just relate what solved my hard feeding/scratched case problem with an old 300 H&H. after years of the bolt not closing on reloads, then not closing on factory ammo, and multiple wanna be smiths going over it, a local yokel cleaned the crap out of the chamber w/chamber brushes, mops, etc etc and now the reloads even feed like the factorys used to years ago. yea i was kinda red faced walking outta there. i cant honestly address the scratchs on the brass until i get some virgin stuff to try.

I appreciate the help and the suggestion of getting the Hornaday gauge.

I happen to have the old RCBS reloading guide #2 from 1976 or close and in the book they talk about problems with trying to partially resize the 243 and similar brass because of the very straight taper and a long, low degree of angle sloping shoulder which tends to swell the shoulder out into a radius instead of a straight taper when you partial- resize it.

I will try it out this weekend with few hand loads and the Hornaday deer hunter loads I am thinking it may be better to just start over with a new rifle if this and some hand loads do not shoot well.

Thanks for the help.

Jim

Welcome.

I would discard ALL old reloading manuals. In the last 30 years powders have changed several lots. Many are now made by different companies & packaged as old brands. Bullets have also developed a lot. Lot of new technology.

I would first get the latest Lyman manual. Read the early chapters 3 times.

I would not look at internet load data until I become thoroughly comfortable with knowing my basics of reloading and the complex factors affecting pressure.

Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by JimTx:
I appreciate the help and the suggestion of getting the Hornaday gauge.

I happen to have the old RCBS reloading guide #2 from 1976 or close and in the book they talk about problems with trying to partially resize the 243 and similar brass because of the very straight taper and a long, low degree of angle sloping shoulder which tends to swell the shoulder out into a radius instead of a straight taper when you partial- resize it.

I will try it out this weekend with few hand loads and the Hornaday deer hunter loads I am thinking it may be better to just start over with a new rifle if this and some hand loads do not shoot well.

Thanks for the help.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Welcome.

I would discard ALL old reloading manuals. In the last 30 years powders have changed several lots. Many are now made by different companies & packaged as old brands. Bullets have also developed a lot. Lot of new technology.

I would first get the latest Lyman manual. Read the early chapters 3 times.

I would not look at internet load data until I become thoroughly comfortable with knowing my basics of reloading and the complex factors affecting pressure.

Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by JimTx:
I appreciate the help and the suggestion of getting the Hornaday gauge.

I happen to have the old RCBS reloading guide #2 from 1976 or close and in the book they talk about problems with trying to partially resize the 243 and similar brass because of the very straight taper and a long, low degree of angle sloping shoulder which tends to swell the shoulder out into a radius instead of a straight taper when you partial- resize it.

I will try it out this weekend with few hand loads and the Hornaday deer hunter loads I am thinking it may be better to just start over with a new rifle if this and some hand loads do not shoot well.

Thanks for the help.

Jim

Loading manuals should ONLY be used as a rough guide, not as an absolute to be followed literally.

In fact, I tend to like the older manuals better than some of the new ones, which seem to have gone totally bonkers!

Saeed

I know that your experience in reloading is far greater than mine.

However I would like to point out one example from YOUR old data on AR for the 416 Rigby.

You, RIP and some others have referred to the load using H4350 & 400 gr bullets. That info is 15 to 20 years old. When I got my 416 Rigby a few years back and developed my loads, they finished at about 8 to 10 grains less than your loads!

Hence my comment.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Loading manuals should ONLY be used as a rough guide, not as an absolute to be followed literally.

In fact, I tend to like the older manuals better than some of the new ones, which seem to have gone totally bonkers!

You are proving my point.

quote:

Originally posted by JimTx:
I have posted up earlier that I had gotten a Savage 7mm-08 Model 11 for a fun gun. I shot three boxes of shells and it never held a pattern inc the front bedding screw kept working loose.

Lots of being pissed off I sent the gun back to Savage and supposedly they put a new barrel on this rifle after waiting several months. My son has this model gun for 13 years and it is a left handed tack driver.

I shot couple of rounds thru this gun and got an unexcited pattern.

Working on the gun and I was going to set up a few hand loads and ran into this problem.

I have reloaded for years and had to go to a heavy "full" resize instead of the usual partial resize to get the shells to fit in the rifle and not have that hard to close the bolt and some of these still have that problem.

I also have a new box of Hornaday Deer hunter loads that have that same but slightly less tight feeling closing the bolt.

I have tried both Hornaday and Remington brass. Funny Is some of the empty shells fit easily then I do the lite full resize and the brass is tight closing the bolt.

Not sure what the problem is if any but I have not had a rifle like this.

Is there a still problem?

I get a small consistent scratch on the shoulder of all the shells that cycle thru the gun.

Thanks for your opinion.

Having read Jim's first post again it would appear the rifle was sent back because it would not group,no issues with chamber. The rifle was returned to him with apparently a new bbl, which now has a tight chamber,as factory bullets should cycle with plenty of clearance.

I also have a new box of Hornaday Deer hunter loads that have that same but slightly less tight feeling closing the bolt.

All the advice is good with regard to FLS etc, but imho given whats described as a tight chamber.

Jim needs to fire form his brass of choice and neck size only,until they requires a FLS.

OR send it back to the supplier to be replaced or at least have the chamber reamed to accept factory bullets as per sami.jc

I'd check your case length and trim if necessary. Long casee can cause the same problem (tight fit) and also affect accuracy.

First off, the simple fact is when you have a SHORT MINIMUM SPEC CHAMBER, it is difficult getting a die that will size enough to overcome the springback.
You can simply adjust your die to cam over, then use feeler gauges between the case head and shellholder base, make sure you raise the decapping pin first, then size and change gauges until your bolt closes with the slightest feel.

Nakihunter,

Please inform me how you determined max pressure in your 416 Rigby @ 38,000psi WITHOUT pressure equipment that was 8-10gr less than Saeeds’ loads?
I have one, even max loads @ 38,000psi LOOK like mild loads.
My pressure trace tells me what pressure I’m running and I see that most manuals are way off with the 416 Rigby. The only manual I have that is about right is Noslers latest.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
First off, the simple fact is when you have a SHORT MINIMUM SPEC CHAMBER, it is difficult getting a die that will size enough to overcome the springback.
You can simply adjust your die to cam over, then use feeler gauges between the case head and shellholder base, make sure you raise the decapping pin first, then size and change gauges until your bolt closes with the slightest feel.

Nakihunter,

Please inform me how you determined max pressure in your 416 Rigby @ 38,000psi WITHOUT pressure equipment that was 8-10gr less than Saeeds’ loads?
I have one, even max loads @ 38,000psi LOOK like mild loads.
My pressure trace tells me what pressure I’m running and I see that most manuals are way off with the 416 Rigby. The only manual I have that is about right is Noslers latest.

Cheers.

To bump the shoulder back I used feeler gages in the past. Now I use a Redding Competition Shell Holder set. On my turret press I have a Redding Instant Indicator that I use to measure the fired cases and figure how much to bump the shoulder. This last step I take care of with one of the Competition shell holders.

I still have a Stoney Point gage-set used to measure the rifle's chamber and case's dimensions, but with the tools above I can do all a lot faster. One thing I always keep in mind is to keep the brass fired in a chamber separate from the brass fired in another chamber (only reload for a couple of .338WM rifles).

A minimum chamber is a good thing, not a problem, just be sure your dies can size the cases down to your chamber fit..you may have to file down your case holder a bit, NOT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR DIE AS HAS BEEN SUGGESTED SEVERAL TIMES ON AR. Sometimes its best to return your die and three fired cases to the die company..

All suggestions are guess and by gosh, one needs the gun in hand to determine the fault.

quote:

Originally posted by KY Nimrod:
I'd check your case length and trim if necessary. Long casee can cause the same problem (tight fit) and also affect accuracy.

This is a strong possibility as I have run into it a # of times.

Slight swelling at the body shoulder junction is another. You might try polishing your expander.

Your expander may be pulling the shoulder slightly forward. Again polish!!

Often problems like this have to be witnessed to arrive at a solution.
roger

Thanks for the help.

Rifle finally decided to settle down.
Varget 42 grains was giving 2700 with the new CCI or some 10 year old Federal Match primers with H 139 bt and Nosler 140 Bt's from the 22 inch barrel. Loaded 42.5 and 43 grains to see if I can match the Hornady and Remington factory ammo with gives 2825-2850. Using the cheap Caldwell to measure with fwiw.

I did a stock stiffing of fore arm and grip areas which was pretty quick and easy since I owned a 15 inch long 1/4 drill.

Did a Devcon plastic steel bedding of the pillar areas and part front chamber. Probably a waste of time. 139 were at 5/8 and the 140 were give 7/8 three shot groups at ~2700 before the work.

I will not bed another plastic stock that does not use the tang for the back support. Pain in the ass, and the clean up from the clay block out is a big a-- mess. The big question is will it effect the groups?

The gun Does feel like a real gun with the balance of the added 1/4 inch all thread rods in the bedding of the fore arm and grip and the balance is great.

I would Probably look at a Boyds next time if they can drill the piller bedding holes for me if I do another or ever decide to redo my old Chet Brown early 80's fiberglass stocks with some of the newer bedding techniques.

Thanks all.

You are getting exactly the kind of results I get with Varget & H139 gr bullets! I get 3 or 4 inch groups at 400 meters with a 2-8X Boone & Crockett reticle scope. Nothing wrong with 2700 fps.

I also get great results with 160 gr Accubond & H4350 at 2600 fps.

Hopefully the extra powder will get me closer to the 2850 range. 2700 is a fair vel but 2800 or more is better. Curious on what powder that Hornaday and Remington use to get that vel.

It is better ONLY if you can get the same level of accuracy!

If your higher velocity results in a 1.5 inch group, I would not be happy.

My Kimber Montana 7mm08 gives me great accuracy with 6 different bullets - TSX 140 & 150, Rem PSPCL 140 & 150, Hornady 139 and Accubond 160gr. It gives me max velocity with TSX and Accubond 160. It refuses to shoot the Accubond 140 gr under 2 inches!

The most consistently accurate load even to 300 and 400 meters is the Hornady 139. Not that the others are bad - just not as good.

quote:

Originally posted by JimTx:
Hopefully the extra powder will get me closer to the 2850 range. 2700 is a fair vel but 2800 or more is better. Curious on what powder that Hornaday and Remington use to get that vel.

Accuracy Vs Velocity is always the big question.

It is hot in Texas and I have not been to the farm to see what the heavier powder loads may do. Rifles and bullets are kinda like women. You never really know what they will do.

To do over again I might not buy the Savage in the flimsy plastic stock again and not sure what the wood stock feels and functions like.

My son's left handed 7mm-08 Savage with the plastic stock from mid 2000 is a different quality gun/ plastic stock to me.

For the money ~500-550$ there may be some other "cheaper rifles" to have gotten to play with. I liked the accu trigger was the reason and I did look at the new stocks.

If I get tired of it there are several family members that would like a fun little rifle that shoots under an inch and probably could not tell the difference on the range whether it shoots 1" or 3 since most never shoot. I do plan to see how the Hornaday "Whitetail" bullets shoot in it.

It was fun but still a little disappointed but it is time to move on.

Have a great day down there. Jim