Are there any other typical causes of vertical stringing, apart from shooting a hot barrel?

Are there also typical causes for pure horizontal stringing?

I heard one time and cannot remember exaxctly what it was but, stock screws that are too tight can cause horizontal stringing and screws that are to loose cause vertical stringing.
I am pretty sure that was the way it was told to me. I have no experience with it, but maybe another member has encountered the same. Wind would be an excelent cause for horizontal stringing and velocity devations could cause horizontal stringing.

powder charges being too high or too low will cause vertical dispersion as will upward pressure points.

horizontle can be wind as well as inconsistent cheek weld among other things.

these are what I see,..so many other causes can also be added to the list.

A load that is off can also cause horizontal stringing. The only force different is a small amount of gravity in the vertical plane. Butch

All good answers. Juct C you will also get vertical with inconsistent shoulder pressure. On the bench I see most horizontal problems coming from varying cheek pressure. You "leaners" take note.

99.9% of the time horizontal stringing is caused by the action being bowed by the front screw...in other words too much pressure on the forend pushing up....

Lateral stringing is caused by pressure on one side or the other of the barrel channal or the front screw being a tad too loose. Side pressure of the action is another clue...

Not so fast Mr. Atkinson--Now lets talk about your other missing .1% just a little bit.
I can induce vertical in my loads by changing to a different primer. I can not pay attention and load varying neck thicknesses and cause vertical. I can get sloppy and load my rounds so some touch the lands and have others off the lands and get bunches of vertical. I see big horizontal when my barrel gets dirty. On my heavy barreled rifles if I do not add weight to the butt they string vertical something terrible. If you have a gun that is barrel heavy and not balanced you get vertical. Not putting the gun back the same shot to shot in the bags will cause vertical. You want to see major vertical let your sling swivel stud rest on your front bag when you fire. Loose scope rings you get vertical. Loose windage rings guess what? Too heavy of a trigger pull you get vertical. Stock flex, shot to shot inconsistentcy, and just plain not watching and picking up on a wind change will cause you horizontal. That sure as hell doesn't leave much room for that other 99.9%

Thank you all for your comments.

To be a bit more specific:
The rifle is a 30-06 built on a Belgian FN 98 system, LW SS barrel, glass- and pillarbedded, free floating stock, Timney featherweight trigger

The other day I was at a shooting range, checking zero. I shot it from a fixed steel gun craddle. The first two shots (150 gr. bullets) went where I expected them; 1,5 inch high @ 100 mtrs and nearly touching.

I waited to cool down the barrel and then took two shots with a different load (200 gr. bullets) They were also where they should be; one inch low.

Then, after cooling down again, I took two shots with the 150 gr. and they were close together again but 3 inches high. There was little or no horizontal stringing (all six shots well within an inch)

From what I understand from your comments this is probably caused by a different position of the rifle in the guncraddle?

Reindeer:
I am not a fan of the type of rest you describe. When you interfer with the rearward recoil you are going to get vertical. Now, try this and you will see why I don't like the things. Sight in with your cradle--the kind that has the cup at the rear for the butt pad. Sight in. Then take that sighted in rifle and shoot from position i.e. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone and now look at your "sighted" in rifle. Or shoot over a bag rest (Non mechanical) with your hand under the forend. Yes your rifle is sighted in--and that is fine if you are going to hunt with your gun from that particular cradle. Also Reindeer you have to remember when you shoot off of a mechanical rest all the nuts and bolts must be tight nothing can be loose or you will introduce troubles as you so describe.

I agree with one holer . Ideally one should sight in using a hold that is similar to that which will be used in the field . I use a bipod and rear bag when sighting in but always make a point of holding the forend as I would if shooting offhand or from another "field" position .
It is quite well documented that different "holds" can result in different impact points .

I disagree.

I use the Lead-Sled, which by all measures interferes with the rearward recoil, and It has cut my groups in half. When working-up loads, I observe vertical and horizontal stringers, which I pass-up for the nice round clusters that become my load of choice.

Yes Ralph your sled probably has reduced your groups. What I am also asking is do you plan to take your sled to the stand with you and shoot at your intended target while your gun is in the sled? Now that you have reduced groups cutting the X I ask that you remove your gun from the sled and engage in the above mentioned test to verify that you are still cutting the X.
Try it out this weekend and let me know what happened.

Hello Ralph,

What exactly is a lead shed?

Reindeer:
A lead sled is exactly the type of device I've been talking about. Imagine a T made out of square tubing laid onto the table. At the front you would have a screw leg on the left and one on the right. At the rear you would have one screw leg for leveling purposes. On the front is attached you leather bag and at the rear is a rubber coated recepticle that the butt end of your rifle sets into so it won't kick your shoulder. What makes the lead sled a lead sled is holder that set midway between the front and the rear of the rest where you place a 25lb bag of lead shot. This is meant to tame the recoil. Go to your local range right before elk season and you will see a bunch of these in use. The elk boys shoot all those Magnums, High velocity, Ultra velocity rounds that knock the snot out of them and their delicate shoulders would get bruised if they did not use such a device.

rests that don't allow the rifle to recoil do not accurately show the load potential either. there is a harminoc created when a certain charge is ignited and the bullet travels down the bore while the gasses expand. The best groups always come from the harmonic at which the bullet exits the bore at the same point in the "infinty symbol" that a barrel muzzle vibrates in under combustion.

A rest that alters that by transmitting recoil energy back toward the muzzle or stopping the vibrations by providing a non-moving obstacle, will alter the performance. A mechanical front rest and rear bag, where the gun is allowed to recoil rearward, will help to maintain the consistent harmonic and reduce muzzle flip which eliminates that variable in group size.

I have used the led-sled rests and prefer to carry my own rest, even if the range provides led-sleds to use.

as to field use,..the bench and a good rest are for load testing and LR target work or hunting,..but in the field or stand, you have to be able to steady that rifle by any means you have, and be a steady shot. The game is a lot bigger than that bullseye on the paper. Just be sure of the slight change that takes place from the bench to field positions and take that into account.

quote:

The elk boys shoot all those Magnums, High velocity, Ultra velocity rounds that knock the snot out of them and their delicate shoulders would get bruised if they did not use such a device.

I shoot the 300ultramag myself and never use such a device to sight in any of my rifles.The main reason for this is that as was previously mentioned, their use often results in a different point of impact than when they are not used.

A lead sled does not arrest all movement, just most of it. The rifle still recoils about 1"

If I don't put my shoulder into it, the assembly will recoil more than that.

I'm not arguing that the point of impact will change. Because it will. I'm arguing that vertical stringing is not caused by the type of rest. It is caused either by shooter error or by the load itself.

quote:

The elk boys shoot all those Magnums, High velocity, Ultra velocity rounds that knock the snot out of them and their delicate shoulders would get bruised if they did not use such a device.

You are about an opinionated sap, One Holer...
Not all of us that hunt elk shoot anything like what you posted above. You are just like some others on here, that like to paint everyone with the same brush. Does it feel good to belittle others?
You strike me as a "know-it-all". I may be wrong, but that is the flavor of your posts. None of us knows it all, and I note that Mr. Atkinson didn't offer to qualify your indignant "correction" with an answer...

Doubless:
Of course I'm opinionated. Everyone has opinions-which makes for some very interesting debate. I unlike a lot of posters here can and have had my mind changed on many different topics. I was under the impression that we were all adults here and not childern who easily had their feelings hurt.
Go ahead call me an asshole instead of a "sap" I'm not "sensitive".

I'm not sensitive either. But I don't talk that way...

Doubless:
If Mr. Atkinson thinks I was a prick for the response that was leveled squarely at him, then let him respond and say so. Doubless are you "pissy" because I was a jerk or because you are an elk hunter?

Ralph:
Correcto I'm with you. Put your rest into the cradle and shoot a group, add another bag of shot it goes somewhere else, put your shoulder behind the cup and it goes elsewhere. Take your gun out and hunt with it be aware of excessive vertical.

I agree.

I will definitely re-zero the gun after load development.

But this lead-sled is a wonderful tool.

I thought this thread was about vertical and horizontal stringing?????


I only one time in my life found the cause of horizontal stringing. A loose scope mount that allowed the scope to move left-right but not up/down.

The groups we got at 100 yards was 4" left-right and .5" up/down.

After tightening the scope mounts we got nice roughly 1" groups.

About Mr Atkinson....this guy has been there and done that and if he posts that the sun rises in the west.....I'm not going to take him to task on it. At his best he's among the most valuable posters on this forum and at the worst, he's a man who'se opinion others might disagree with but still his opinion to think about. No different than anyone else.

Notice the benchrest rifles are fired free recoil. Even my 300RUM posts it's best groups under a free recoil situation. Arresting the recoil is detrimental to accuracy,..but for target grade performance in mind. Even the rail guns in the unlimited class are allowed to slide fully for a good ways before toughing the shooters shoulder, it at all. I have used the sleds, and prefer my Bald Eagle with a rear bag. For sporter rifles,..I bolt on the Hart accuracy asset plate to provide a flat bottom and to allow the rifle to slide rearward in the bags. Not to say a sled won't produce great accuracy, but I prefer to let the rifle recoil.

I have learned to shoulder the rifle in the bags for sporters, and allow the rifle to push me back and then slide back foreward against the stop. I am providing no resistance,..only gliding back and forth with the rifle. This for me produces the most CONSISTENCY in my testing and group shooting.

Not flaming the sled as opposed to a bipod or sand bags, just saying that for me the best performance comes from a mechaincal front rest and rear bags with sling swivels removed.

Vapodog:
I've been keeping an eye on my mail for suspecious packages the last couple of days advertising free hunting adventures. You always have to watch those quiet types that don't tell your to FO to your face.
Saw a good horizontal at the range today. Guy had a 700 with a cheekpiece and had a brand new rear rest with rabbit ears instead of bunny ears. Left ear was interferring with recoil. Lots of horizontal and unbelievable diagonal stringing. We can add that one to the list.
Tell Atkinson if he is bad we can kiss and make up.

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
Notice the benchrest rifles are fired free recoil.

Yer not wrong there. My heavy .223 with 24x scope will often "jump" off the target centre during dryfireing. The only sure way to stop it was to leave it alone and use just my thumb and finger to squeez the trigger. The worse I could do was to rest my cheek on the stock.
Would be a funny style in the field though.
John L.

Vapodog:
This weekend I pulled out a 700 30/06 that had been having sporadic horizontal stringing. One trip to the range it would be perfect and the next I would get horizontal. Pulled off the stock and noticed that my trigger group was hitting the side of the stock. A little dremel work took care of the rub. I have never seen this gun hug the center line as tight as it does now. Only time will tell if this solves the horizontal issue with this particular gun.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Vapodog:
This weekend I pulled out a 700 30/06 that had been having sporadic horizontal stringing. One trip to the range it would be perfect and the next I would get horizontal. Pulled off the stock and noticed that my trigger group was hitting the side of the stock. A little dremel work took care of the rub. I have never seen this gun hug the center line as tight as it does now. Only time will tell if this solves the horizontal issue with this particular gun.

I really don't know but I suspect almost all of the stringing problems are bedding related.

I would have to classify the rubbing trigger group into your "bedding issues" catagory.