In the Sierra Gameking post there is a differing opinion about weather or not a bullet fails irregardless of the effect of the bullet on the game. Within these great walls of knowledge I've found basically two trains of thought.



#1 Two holes are better for tracking so a pass through is more desireable.



#2 A bullet that stops in the game has expended all its energy causing maximum trauma.



I hit a deer at 25 yards with a 12 ga slug standing perfectly broadside through both lungs, got two holes and tracked it for 100 yards. I've also hit a deer at 25 yards square in the front of the shoulder with the slug stopping on the off side hide back in the hip. This deer flipped over backwards, got up and still went 50 yards. It left a lot more blood to follow than the 'pass through' deer. The bottom line is that both deer were D-E-A-D dead in a hurry.



The Sierra post basically deals with deer, and I see merit to both of these points. Then you read the small game and varmint hunting threads where the main point is getting the most out of a bullet short of an exit wound to minimize fur damage. There's no talk of bullet failure, in fact the more violently it comes apart the better.



I agree with Jeffe, if the deer dies within 20 yards while spitting out it's lung, mission accomplished weather it was the way you intended or not.



Ray Atkinson raises the point of bullet choice vs. placement. All bullets have specific applications where they work well and some where they don't. Same goes for caliber, type of implement, (ie rifle/pistol/bow) and the type of game. If you're carrying a .308 you have a bit more flexibility than if you're carrying a recurve bow.



The bottom line is that we must each choose from all the availible options and come up with a combination we are confident in, then stay within the limitations of our choice. Our first responsibility to the game is to make as quick and clean a kill as possible. How you accomplish this is what makes it fun. Recover the animal and all is well. Thanks for listening.

I want a bullet that will penetrate the animal that I am hunting lengthwise and expand some on a broadside shot and give me an exit hole..I keep it simple...

I don't care how far he runs after the hit as long as I have a good blood trail.

Light fast soft bullets kill like electrocution "most" of the time, therein lies the problem, ocassionally one will take off and never been seen again because he bleeds internally..I have seen this happen too many times...Its the price one pays for those devastating instant kills that makes everyone go WOW!, your come uppance is just around the corner my friend, when you lose that wonderfull trophy and he dies a lingering death holed up in some bush patch.

Pick your bullet with care, its more important than caliber.

Atkinson's statement about bullet more important than caliber is right on. I personally like two holes for blood trailing but can't complain when they don't exit and the deer drops on the spot. We hunters expect an awfull lot out of bullets, its hard to get that "perfect" one but there's a lot of "bad" ones. Good luck.

Good points. I think it also depends on the definition of failure.

I think all agree that if a bullet fragments on contact, or bores right through without expanding much, that it has failed in most hunting applications. Obviously small varmints and extremely large game offer exceptions to this standard.

The argument comes in the area of bullet integrity rather than what I view as "failure". Failure to me means failure; didn't get the job done. If a bullet's core serarates from the jacket, passes through, and the deer drops on the spot, then I am not going to listen to those who say it "failed". The only thing it did was to fail to maintain mechanical integrity, not fail to do its intended purpose; kill the animal quickly and efficently.

Finally common sense comes into play. I am not going after water buffalo with a Nosler BT, nor am I going after coyotes with a Barnes solid. If you load a BT to velocities over 3200fps where you may get a 30 yard shot in brush, you are hunting with the wrong gun/cartridge combination. Ditto if you take a 30-30 on a trip where a 300 yard shot is possible. At velocities of 2800 fps and under there is no reason whatsoever to assume any caliber over 25 will fail if loaded with any hunting bullet made by any major manufacturer.

By circumstance ALL bullets will fail at one time or another. The ones most linked to supposed failure either don't really fail, or are so popular they have much more opportunity to have an event than those which sell .005% of the market often spoken of as "never failed".

My $02.

I agree befus. Its amazing how well conventional bullets work(Speer hotcore, Rem. core-lokt, Hornady interlockt, Win. power point, etc.) when going no more than 2800fps and the proper weight is used. I can remember growing up if someone had a "failure" with a certain bullet, they just used a heavier bullet. Problem solved.

I don't hunt deer, but moose& caribou ,bear etc..
I always prefer an exit,it's better to have to much penetration than not enough.I agree bullet choice matters more than caliber,but there nothing like a big caliber exit to follow a blood trail with.
Thanks

Here's the part where I apologize to any one who may have thought I tried to discount there opinion. I see pros and cons with both ways of thinking, and I don't care which way it happens, but like Griz said, over penetration is better than not enough. Steel vs. Heavishot on geese proves this point irrefutably. How much over penetration is too much? If you continuously ruin a lot of meat you might think about bringing it down a bit until you loose that trophy animal Ray talks about.

Ray, I agree with both of your points- I don't care how far they go either, as long as they leave a trail. I also agree with bullet choice over caliber. Do any of you know some one that decided on the bullet he thought was the perfect deer dropper, worked up the perfect load, then figured out what rifle shoot it out of? Most of us either have the gun or want a specific brand in a certain caliber. We then pick either a factory loading (my case, I don't yet reload center fire) or work up a load using a bullet we have used with good results or a bullet we've chosen after reading page after page, or screen after screen of other's experiences. I picked the .44 because of the proven track record and availability of factory loads and the wealth of hand loading data and components.

Befus makes a great point regarding integrity vs. failure.

Every deer I've harvested I consider a trophy. I'm sure I've shot less deer in my life than a lot of you have in a season or three. My most memorable is the spike I took with my .44 two years ago. It is my only buck and my first game of any kind with a pistol. It may has well been a 180 class B&C as happy as I am about it. Quartering away, through the ribs and stopped in the off side shoulder. Down and out in place. I recovered and kept the factory Hornady 240 XTP JHP. Perfect magazine ad mushroom.

For a factory load on white tails up to 160 lbs, maybe 180 lbs, is there a better choice or merely others?

Befus,
All you say is true, but keep in mind that a bullet that goes to pieces and kills the deer on a broadside shot is pretty worthless if you shoot the next deer at a angle or take a Texas heart shot, as the bullet will blow up in the hindquarters or guts and then you got big problems, so bullet integrity and bullet failure are very closely related...

I guess I'm with the 1st option. Although I'm not nearly as old as Ray, I've learned that a heavy bullet at moderate velocity is the best way for me to get the job done. I shoot 154 and 173 gr. bullets in my 7x57 and 180's in my '06. The only guns I shoot what I consider light bullets in are my Ruger 77RSI in 308 (150 gr.) and my BLR in 300 Win (165 gr.), and that's only because they don't like heavier bullets.

I'm no physicist but I believe those that espouse the energy expenditure position forget that to stay in the animal the bullet must decelerate to zero fps and therefore would generally do much less tissue damage on the offside. Seems to me the last 300 or so-0 fps is going to rupture only the cells the bullet makes physical contact with. But if the bullet blows on through it at high speed it is causing surrounding cell rupture by shock and creating a wound channel even on the offside. Tissue damage is not caused simply by energy transfer but rather by the nature of the transfer. And as Ray points out shot angle then is not a handicap.

Beats me why anyone wants to hunt with bullets that can't be used at muzzle velocity or require only broadside presentation. I've had too many unpredictable presentations to put up with that. Now that the bonded polymers on here hopefully it's a different story.

Ray Wrote:

Quote:

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I don't care how far he runs after the hit as long as I have a good blood trail.

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You have to be very Careful w/ that statement.

First I'd like to say that I have seen more animals lost from "Hard to Destruct" bullets than a good expander due to there lack of blood trails and very little expansion. If you've been in the woods long enough and trailed your fair share of animals, than you know that animals will often quit bleeding after a piece due to clotting and tissues clogging up the tiny holes. When that happens, tracking is kind of like "finding a needle in a hay stack," you just have to comb the area in hopes of stumbling across the game.

It is a simple fact that a larger hole lets out more blood and tissue and that larger hole means there was alot of internal damage. More blood and More damage only mean one thing, a QUICKER death which, is much more humane. That is exactly why I shoot bullets like Sierra, NBT, SST, Hdy SPILs, and Remington CLs. They do the job better and I have seen way more animals lost to the tough bullets than the expanders.

Lets face the facts, There has probably been 10-20 times more game taken w/ the Soft bullets. That proves one thing, They Do The Job. If we really had the numbers, I would strongly venture to say that more animals are lost to tough bullets than soft bullets, at least that has been true in most of the places I have hunted.

Now, tough bullets do have there place. They were designed for Tough Game. Tough game usually applies to the 700+ lb. animals and for those animals the tough bullets work great but, when we are talking deer and Elk sized game, just about any copper jacketed bullet will do the job.

Good Luck and God Bless!

Reloader

reloader -

great post! thanks for putting a little bit of reality back into the conversation!

Mr. Nosler designed the tougher bullets due to failure of the soft ones. Pay your $, take your choice. No doubt both will do the job.

I may have been using a different 12 gauge shotgun slug but the times I've killed game (white tails) with a shotgun slug, it jellied up the innerts as well or better than any boy howdy look how fast I can go, light for calibre mini-rocket.
Some fellow, I can't remember who, said: regarding game bullets, "if you're going faster than 2800fps, you need more bullet, not more speed." And you can write than in ink 'cause everything I've learnt proves it true.

Reloader,
I agree, one can go too far in any direction with bullets, as with most things, moderation works...I certainly don't recommend bullets that are too hard for the game anymore than I recommend bullets that come apart.

A bullet should expand to at least 1/2 its original caliber such as a 30 cal should expand to 45 cal and retain its integrity (jacket if you will) and have enough shaft to push it forward and out the other side, ala Nosler for instance...Even at that I only like Noslers in caliber 270 and larger...

Now if one has two holes, then air pushes in and blood pushes out, and fat or meat will seldom if ever plug both holes, but with a proper bullet the the exit hole should be nickle to quarter in size and that kind of a hole will bleed...entrance holes are mostly caliber size and can plug from time to time...

IMO the bullet that expends all its energy inside an animal is pure bunk and BS created by some gun writer, and a lot of folks took up his cause because on the surface it sound good, but it just doesn't fly...If one shoots enough game that will dawn on him sooner or later, after digging out several hundred bullets and doing field autopsys of sorts, if you are a confirmed bullet digger.

A bullet that knocks two holes does every bit as much damage as one that stops on the off side skin, plus it tears a hole to let all that damage out on the ground...
Whats left in energy and velocity is very little indeed and many bullets fall on the ground after tearing that tough off side rubbery skin..Of course the bigger the animal is the more pronounced this effect is...but even on deer and antelope I like big exit holes as opposed to blood in the body cavity...

Ah Mater Ray is so right here. A bullet that completely penetrates broadside can be expected to reach vitals on angling shots. I have seldom had a perfect broadside shot so I like the extra insirance a tougher bullet gives me. Then again, if the hole is big enough, a solid will do, makes me want to reach for my .404 next deer season.

Reloader, I agree and I have only one comment.



Any Idiot that would choose a Bullet Design based on how its expected performance is concluded with a Rear-end Hole shot, is delusionary. What happened to �Marksmanship�, �Shot placement�, and passing on a �Bad Shot�?



I do agree with to Two hole Theory, but not with the Asshole to Adam Theory, a well placed shot, either angle, or broad side with most true Large Game bullets will dispatch game with efficiency. I can promise you more game is lost because of Hard Bullets and Bad shot placement than shooters using Soft bullets, and who adhere to good shot placement practices.

Interesting discussion. Others have already stated it but my wants in different bullet types are:

Solids- I want a bullet that doesn't expand or bend and penetrates as far as the weight and powder charge lets it. If I don't get enough penetration I need a bigger cartridge.

Softpoint- I want a bullet to expand to 150% of the original diameter and retains 90% of its original weight. Again, if I don't get enough penetration I need a bigger cartridge.

Varmint- I want a bullet that blows up.

chop -

more good comments which focus on "the way it should be....." thanks!

As always these posts turn into pissing contests

And since I'm from another part of the world I cannot with my best side understand why some jackasses cannot separate marksmanship from bullet performance.

If you gut shoot something it will probably be lost whatever bullet and caliber used. So put a sock in it and shut up.

Bullets that go to pieces on a broadside shot will not have the proper penetration to reach the vitals on angling shots. And that kind of a bullet IMO not worth s*** when we talk about hunting. How many have only 90 degree broadside shots when hunting big game. I'll tell you NOBODY!!!

That�s why I use a premium easy expanding bullet for everything I hunt whether it is deer or moose. To change to a cheaper and lesser bullet for deer is in my opinion pure BS and probably causes more poor hits than any other. Different ammo for different hunting only introduces variable you don't need when hunting.

Same gun, same ammo, same trajectory equals good hits.
If you hunt with a medium to low velocity round you do not need a premium bullet for neither deer nor moose. With a high-speed cartridge you do for both.

So everybody just stop making things black and white. They are not!