I just shot a 180 grain Swift-A-Frame bullet out of my .300 Remington Ulta Mag into a wet pile of dirt at a distance of 35 yards.

I had loaded it in front of 96 grains of Reloader-25, I was checking for high pressure signs (no sign of pressure).

However, when I dug the bullet out of the dirt it was in two parts and had expanded all the way to the rear of the bullet.

The question, I'm getting at is this a unfair way to check a bullets performance compared to animal tissue. Maybe I'm pushing the bullet to fast or would I be fine as long as I'm hitting animal tissue? Would the bullet hold up better on a animal instead of a dirt pile, I guess thats what I'm trying to say. All opinions welcome and Thanks.

Scratch

PS. Muzzle velocity = 3350-3400 fps

My favorite test is shooting through milk jugs of water. I have never tested the A-Frame bullets, and would be interested in your results.
Good Shooting

Scratch,

http://www.groovebullets.com/

dave

Shooting into a pile of dirt at 35 yards doesn't seem like a fair test of a bullet unless you're hunting dinosaurs or giant dirt clod aliens....

What Andy said, holding up into dirt @ 3400 fs is asking a lot of any bullet.

Scratch,
That is a tough test and one that only very tough monometal solids will survive. Even an expanding monometal bullet will shed a good portion of weight. I concur with OldFart (man you should change that handle!), that water is the closest you will get to real life expansion.

Properly prepared ballistic gelatin is best, but difficult and expensive to prepare. Water is a very close second and much more consistent. We hang a series of tightly packed plastic bags in a trough with plastic sheets in the front and rear openings. That way we can measure penetration depth and recover the bullet easily. It also makes results from any place and any time comparable.

What I had done in the past to duplicate a reproduction of a good animal substitute media is to use wet news paper. Tie it tightly together and soak it with water. Use enough wet paper thickness so it will catch the bullet and not over penitrate, loosing the bullet. If you want to get the best recreation of reproduced animal media, go by your local butcher store and ask for some pieces of bone that he doesn't need. Place the bone in certain areas of the paper. Try to hit the area W/bone and W/O bone, and see how it the bullet performs. Shoot the media at actual shooting range distances.

Dirt, sand, and ground media is not a fair comparison of how a bullet would act on a game animal at all. Especially at close range.

Dennis

Gerard
Schultz,

Dmacsimun
Velocity

Thanks for the tips, I'll give both a try at different distance.

It is. Dirt is a lot harder, and provides a whole lot more nonyielding resistance than any animal.

Dry telephone books seperate the tough bullets from the tender ones in a hurry..dry paper is hard on bullets...All any test media does is compare one bullet to another...Animals are the only true testing media.

I have seen most premium bullets come apart on Buffalo and Eland spines...exceptions have been North Forks, and North Forks, can't think of another bullet that has withstood that test, without loosing petals, wadding up big time or completely coming apart, North Forks just make neat mushrooms no matter what...BUT they each and every one killed or put down old M'Bogo on the spot.

To give any hunting bullet a fare test, fire them into water soaked magazines at 200 yards. The game animal is about 85% water the rest is bone. The water soaked magazines simulate the water content of the animal and the resistance each wet page will give a good penetration test for the bullet. It should take about a three foot thickness of wet magazines to stop a good hunting bullet at 200 yards. The ideal hunting bullet should mushroom to twice it's original diameter when it strikes the intended target.

Point blank range will not show a hunting bullets mushrooming qualities. Point blank range shooting when the bullet exceeds 3000 fps will explode violently when it strikes. After the bullets slows down it has a much better chance of releasing it's energy inide the animal.

Varmint bullets are designed to explode on impact at any reasonable hunting distance. Properly constructed hunting bullets are designed to give controlled expansion at any reasonable hunting distance. The more original weight the big game hunting bullet retains after striking the target the better they should perform.

The so called premium bullet or hot core bonded bullet is no more likely to hold together any better than the less expensive hunting bullets by Sierra, Hornaday, Speer. Except for the solid copper hunting bullets, all hunting bullets are constructed of a copper jacket with a lead core. Higher cost so called premium bullets will perform no better than the less expensive hunting bullets made by Sierra, Hornaday, or Speer. Marketing by the bullet maker induces the mind set that his higher priced hunting bullet will perform better, I have not found that to be true. Accurate shot placement is 75% of the equasion while bullet performsnce is the other 25% in big game getting ability. Often those high velocity cartridges cause bullet breakup at short to medium ranges. At extreme ranges heavy jacketed hunting bullets do not mushroom and punch bullet diameter sized holes in the game.

I have not fired any solid copper bullets due to cost and if they are not loaded properly the barrel of the rifle can rupture. Solid copper bullets must have at least a .050 jump into the lands to prevent extremely high pressure peaks when fired.

I must disagree with Reloader66 on his statement "The so called premium bullet or hot core bonded bullet is no more likely to hold together any better than the less expensive hunting bullets by Sierra, Hornaday, Speer." In my testing, the premium bullets hold together much - much better than standard bullets, and I still have several of the bullets to prove it. I have posted these pictures before, but check out:

http://www.contender-g2.com/bulletcp1.jpg

The bullets are, from left to right, 7mm 160 failsafe, 7mm 140 failsafe, 7mm 140 partition, and 7mm 150 Scirocco. They were all tested at about max velocity out of a 7mm STW with the exception of the scirocc, which was fired out of a 7mm mag.

When I test the bullet (shooting through Milk Jugs of water), I test them full load at 10 feet from the Muzzle, and reduce my load from there. I don't know if my shot at a animal will be measured in feet, or hundreds of yards, so I like to pick velocities at each end of the spectrum during my tests.

I agree with Reloader66 statement that accuracy is 75% of the equation, and bullet performance is 25%, with the exception that the larger and tougher the game (particularly on long shots), the bullet performance end of the equation will rise.

Note: I thought of changing my Handle to something more appropriate, but I'm not sure if four letter words are allowed.
Good Shooting

Reloader66,
Not all monometal copper bullets cause pressure spikes if loaded in contact with lands and grooves. We proved in a ballistic proof lab that GS Custom HV and FN bullets loaded into the rifling and off the rifling produced the same speeds and pressures. As for "rupturing the barrel", it is no more likely to happen with monometal bullets than with jacketed bullets.

You also say: "Often those high velocity cartridges cause bullet breakup at short to medium ranges. At extreme ranges heavy jacketed hunting bullets do not mushroom and punch bullet diameter sized holes in the game."

There are monometal bullets available that have also solved those two problems. I invite you to have a closer look at our bullets, it is not the same old rehash of existing designs, we break new ground. Have a look at this page for an outline of what I mean.

I edited this to tell the old guy above that I will address him as OF. It just seems less disrespectful and goes back to a lesson my father taught me when I was young.

[ 03-11-2003, 09:08: Message edited by: Gerard Schultz ]

Dirt etc is an unfair test indeed. My 7x57 will totaly destroy 175gr A frames fired into chalk at 100yds with a MV of only 2450fps. The same with 286gr nosler partitions from my 9.3x62 at a MV of only 2,200fps.

Fired into ply and wet newspaper expansion and weight loss is textbook.

The big difference appears to be the much more rapid energy loss in dirt being dissipated by production of heat which melts the cores and causes everything to come unglued.

Dry newsprint is a bit unreliable as the first bullet goes into densely packed pages and every bullet thereafter has an easier time. For this reason I prefer ply to simulate bone.

Yes, your test is unrealistic ar best. Swifts are about as good as they come. All of mine ( that I have recovered were in the high 90s percentage retained weight.) Reloder 66, I guess there is no good way to put this, but your comments on premiums vs standard bullets is absurd. If you follow your logic, a Yugo is just as good as a Cdillac in that they both provide transportation. Hornadys are very good but can't be trusted at velocities greater than 2700 fps. Sierras are notoriously soft, all I would trust them with are deer and varmints. Most of the gents here on the forum have seen my pictures of A Frames and Hornadys, but go here: www.kateydid.com/hunter and look and the recovered bullets. The "failed" one was recovered from an impala at 80 yards out of a 300 Weatherby ( 180gr) yes, the animal died, but had it been say a eland or even a kudu, the results would have been markedly different. jorge

Once did a test on a big log with several types of bullets,most penetrated about the same more or less,the one that was uncomparible was the win. failsafe.This bullet is awesome when it comes to penetration. Interested to know if there are bullets that can beat this.

reloader 66

testing your bullets at 200 yards will tell you one thing for certain: how your bullets perform at 200 yards if you need to find out how bullets perform up close, then that is where you need to test them. while sand destroys almost all bullets at close range, water remains an excellent test of bullets in tissue.

i for one have seen a huge difference in how premiums perform in water at close range verses standard cup jacketed bullets. nosler partitions for example have survived at better than 3200 fps while the same weight ballistic tips have had core separation and lost 60% of there weight at 2500. premiums and commons IMO show a big difference both in meat and in test media.

gabe

I have just as many Sierra, Hornaday, Remington bulk bullets recovered from game in my gun closet that did as well or better as those four premium bullets you show in your post. I am happy with my choice of hunting bullets as you are also with yours. The Remington Cor-Lokt bullet holds the edge in mushrooming qualities. Hornaday tends to shed it's jacket under 200 yards.

Reloader 66: Yardage has nothing to do with it. IT's VELOCITY that's the culprit. THose Sierras and Hornadys do the job, particularly on thin skinned animals and at moderate velocities. And you are right, for animals like whitetails, the standard bullets are ok. But once you graduate up to elk and bigger and impact velocities greater than 2700 fps, you are asking for trouble with Hornadys and for SURE with Sierras. jorge