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7.7x58mm Die Question
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Hierophant
new member
posted
I am new to reloading and plan to buy the RCBS Rockchucker kit soon. One of the primary rounds I plan to reload for is 7.7x58mm jap for my arisaka. I am looking on midwayusa.com and see several options and am not sure which is best. I plan to use 30-06 brass and trim them down and use .311 bullets.

There are so many options I don't know what I need:
(1) Lee Pacesetter 3-Die Set
(2) RCBS 2-Die Set
(3) RCBS 2-Die Neck Sizer Set
(4) RCBS Full Length Sizer Die
(5) RCBS Neck Sizer Die
(6) RCBS Seater Die
(7) RCBS Trim Die

All of these can be found at: http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?search_keyw...elector=all_products


Advice?
 
Posts: 9 | Location: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: 11 June 2008Reply With Quote
303Guy
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quote:
While the round chambered by the Arisaka rifle used a rimless case, rimmed and semi-rimmed variants were produced for use in some Japanese machine guns. The 7.7 mm Arisaka uses the same .311-.312" bullets as the .303 British, and its cartridge case is similar in power to the .30-06 Springfield(7.62x63mm). Factory loaded ammunition and brass cases are available from Norma and Graf; Hornady, Sierra and Speer also produce usable bullets.

Specifications
Parent case .303 British
Bullet diameter 0.313 in (8.0 mm)
Neck diameter 0.338 in (8.6 mm)
Shoulder diameter 0.429 in (10.9 mm)
Base diameter 0.468 in (11.9 mm)
Rim diameter 0.470 in (11.9 mm)
Rim thickness 0.040 in (1.0 mm)
Case length 2.25 in (57 mm)
Overall length 2.95 in (75 mm)

8x57 Mauser
Specifications
Parent case None
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter 8.20 mm (0.323 in)
Neck diameter 9.08 mm (0.357 in)
Shoulder diameter 10.95 mm (0.431 in)
Base diameter 11.94 mm (0.470 in)
Rim diameter 11.95 mm (0.470 in)
Rim thickness 1.30 mm (0.051 in)
Case length 57.00 mm (2.244 in)
Overall length 82.00 mm (3.228 in)
Case capacity 4.09 cm³ (63 gr H2O)
The 8x57 Mauser case might be more suitable to reform.


Regards
303Guy
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 October 2007Reply With Quote
ireload2
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Check out the 7.7 Arisaka cases sold by Graf and you will be a lot safer and happier. The 7.7 head is a little larger than the 30-06 family and will leave a pronounced pressure ring after you do all that hard work to make your cases.
I would recommend using a standard FL die set made by RCBS though you may find the Lees less expensive. Lees work though there are some features that I don't care for.
Oops looks like they are out of it but check around. I see it at gun shows. 7.7 Jap brass at Grafs
 
Posts: 9207 | Registered: 22 November 2002Reply With Quote
bartsche
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quote:
Originally posted by 303Guy:
[QUOTE] Specifications
Parent case .303 British Confused bewildered??????
Bullet diameter 0.313 in (8.0 mm)
Neck diameter 0.338 in (8.6 mm)
Shoulder diameter 0.429 in (10.9 mm)
Base diameter 0.468 in (11.9 mm)
Rim diameter 0.470 in (11.9 mm)
Rim thickness 0.040 in (1.0 mm)
Case length 2.25 in (57 mm)
Overall length 2.95 in (75 mm)
.


Please explane. roger


Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..
 
Posts: 10226 | Location: Temple City CA | Registered: 29 April 2003Reply With Quote
delloro
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the japanese bought some czech MGs in 303 (Besas, IIRC) and liked the performance. they had determined that the 6.5 left a little to be desired, ballistically. so, they developed a 7.7 round which is not too different.

recall that japanese small arms development was a mess of inconsistent rounds and obsolete design. it was particularly puzzling given their advanced aeronautic and naval development.
 
Posts: 1077 | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
303Guy
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Parent case .303 British Confused bewildered??????

Yeah , I know .... Roll Eyes

The Japs were motivated by the performance of the 303 Brit round and developed their own round based on it. Hardly the parent case 'though. That was a quote taken from Wikipedia.


Regards
303Guy
 
Posts: 2518 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 October 2007Reply With Quote
Shinzo
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quote:
Originally posted by 303Guy:
That was a quote taken from Wikipedia.


Maybe that explains the quote I saw the other day which ran something like "Wikipedia, enabling more people to be slightly misinformed than ever before." Big Grin
Steve
 
Posts: 540 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 07 March 2008Reply With Quote
RaySendero
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quote:
Originally posted by 303Guy:
quote:
Parent case .303 British Confused bewildered??????

Yeah , I know .... Roll Eyes

The Japs were motivated by the performance of the 303 Brit round and developed their own round based on it. Hardly the parent case 'though. That was a quote taken from Wikipedia.


Don't know where Wikipedia got their info?????

The 303 Brit is certainly NOT the parent case for the 7.7x58 Arisaka! The 8mm Mauser is the parent case and the 7.7x58 has a SMALLER case volume than the 30/06!


________
Ray
 
Posts: 1786 | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With Quote
RaySendero
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PS: Back to the original question

I reload using the Lee dies, Graf cases, CCI-200 primers, a Hornady 174 RN and IMR-4064.

for this rifle:



________
Ray
 
Posts: 1786 | Registered: 10 November 2004Reply With Quote
Tailgunner
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 303Guy:
quote:
Parent case .303 British Confused bewildered??????

Yeah , I know .... Roll Eyes

The Japs were motivated by the performance of the 303 Brit round and developed their own round based on it. Hardly the parent case 'though. That was a quote taken from Wikipedia.


If you look a little deeper, both the Italians and the Japanese used the 303 Brit cartridge. IOW the 7.7 Jap RIMMED is identical to the 303 Brit cartridge. As noted, there is also a 7.7 Jap Semi-Rimmed AND a 7.7 Jap Rimless. I can't remember the exact branches, but IIRC the infantry used the rimless, the Navy used the Rimmed and the SR was only used in a couple of army MG's

Ireload
Yep, that .002 difference in base diameter is highly visible Roll Eyes
The Norma and Graff's 7.7x58 brass will show the same "base bulge" as converted x57 & -06 cases, due to the jugged (oversize) chambers usually found in these rifles. IOW if you'd ever reloaded for a 7.7x58 Arasaka, (instead of simply repeating old wives tails) you'd know this.
 
Posts: 2124 | Location: Whittemore, MI, USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
Hierophant
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quote:
Originally posted by Tailgunner:
Yep, that .002 difference in base diameter is highly visible
The Norma and Graff's 7.7x58 brass will show the same "base bulge" as converted x57 & -06 cases, due to the jugged (oversize) chambers usually found in these rifles. IOW if you'd ever reloaded for a 7.7x58 Arasaka, (instead of simply repeating old wives tails) you'd know this.


So basically I can resize 8x57 or .30-06? And the best dies to use would be option (2) RCBS 2 die set?

Also, I know they sell 7.7x58 brass but it is a bit on the pricey side for me. I was hoping to resize some cheaper brass.

Thanks for all the advice
 
Posts: 9 | Location: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: 11 June 2008Reply With Quote
delloro
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quote:
Originally posted by Hierophant:
So basically I can resize 8x57 ...?


that's what I heard, so I necked down two spares I picked up at the range, R-P I think, and loaded them with 42.0 4895 and hdy 150 0.312 bullets. one case had a 99% case head separation (fell apart with mild finger pressure), the other has a bright ring.

that was enough for me.

I'm going to get some of the graf's brass.
 
Posts: 1077 | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
ireload2
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tailgunner:
quote:
Originally posted by 303Guy:
quote:
Parent case .303 British Confused bewildered??????

Yeah , I know .... Roll Eyes

The Japs were motivated by the performance of the 303 Brit round and developed their own round based on it. Hardly the parent case 'though. That was a quote taken from Wikipedia.


If you look a little deeper, both the Italians and the Japanese used the 303 Brit cartridge. IOW the 7.7 Jap RIMMED is identical to the 303 Brit cartridge. As noted, there is also a 7.7 Jap Semi-Rimmed AND a 7.7 Jap Rimless. I can't remember the exact branches, but IIRC the infantry used the rimless, the Navy used the Rimmed and the SR was only used in a couple of army MG's

Ireload
Yep, that .002 difference in base diameter is highly visible Roll Eyes
The Norma and Graff's 7.7x58 brass will show the same "base bulge" as converted x57 & -06 cases, due to the jugged (oversize) chambers usually found in these rifles. IOW if you'd ever reloaded for a 7.7x58 Arasaka, (instead of simply repeating old wives tails) you'd know this.


Tailgunner,

If you had bothered to measure .30-06 brass it varies more than .002....but then again do you know what .002 is at 50,000 PSI? I can certainly notice the difference.
So .002 here and .002 there and first thing you know you have a big bulge.
BTW I consider .008 a large bulge and .002 is 25% of a large bulge.....

Do you also try to use .30-06 brass in a 6.5X55 or 6.5X55 brass in a 7.5X54 MAS? They yield the same dangerous result.
It is only your eyes... Eeker
 
Posts: 9207 | Registered: 22 November 2002Reply With Quote
Tailgunner
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by delloro:
quote:
Originally posted by Hierophant:
So basically I can resize 8x57 ...?


that's what I heard, so I necked down two spares I picked up at the range, R-P I think, and loaded them with 42.0 4895 and hdy 150 0.312 bullets. one case had a 99% case head separation (fell apart with mild finger pressure), the other has a bright ring.

that was enough for me.

I'm going to get some of the graf's brass.


Nest time you put some 8x57 and 7.7x58 brass side by side, note the difference in shoulder position. The Jap round has it's shoulder some .020+ forward of the 8x57 case. IOW you "caused" the seperation problem by not properly fireforming the case to the chamber (IOW a simple "excess headspace" issue).
 
Posts: 2124 | Location: Whittemore, MI, USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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